The Big Bang, Evolution, Creation, Life etc.

[YmirGF]

I noticed he said began but yes if he applied the same logic to god then he should end up with the same problem. Just copping out by saying God is eternal can just as easily be applied to the singularity for example. We can't explain where the singularity so placing God before what we know is the ultimate god of the gaps which is about the only place people have left to hide god since most everything else has natural explanations.

It is strange how some insist on a cause that cannot be tested, smug and secure that they cannot be proven wrong. In that regard, the Big Bang could have been created by a deranged unicorn. Well? Go ahead, prove that a deranged unicorn did not precipitate the Big Bang. In my view, it is merely a vain attempt to shoehorn theological assumptions into modern science. In order to claim that God created the Big Bang would you not have to prove that God exists?

 

[idav]

In order to claim that God created the Big Bang would you not have to prove that God exists?

You'd have to prove how the universe came into existence which is a big fat question mark right now. Even if you could prove it was created by an outside agent there is no way to say that this outside influence cares about this galaxy or this earth. If the universe created itself then the universe is god, not that it really means anything unless the universe or earth itself is similar to an organism which I find to be likely within our current scope of things.

 

[outhouse]

You'd have to prove how the universe came into existence which is a big fat question mark right now.

We dont put a deity in the gaps of our knowledge, that has been a mistake in the past, why keep making it?

If the universe created itself then the universe is god,

um no it isnt

thats not even a decent explanation of the originsa of deity like Yahweh

panthesim is not that old by the way






Really his statement is correct, before you can attribute something a deity has done you have to prove the deity is real. This has never been accomplished

 

[idav]

We dont put a deity in the gaps of our knowledge, that has been a mistake in the past, why keep making it?

When trying to consider origins the notion of a godlike figure is inevitable. Whether the universe is coming from nothing or something eternal is an interesting question for cosmology and theology alike.

um no it isnt

Guess that depends on what definition you hold for God. Until our origins are explained by science we answer it philosophically.

thats not even a decent explanation of the originsa of deity like Yahweh

I agree.

panthesim is not that old by the way

I agree, the concept has been around for a long time aside from the yahweh or allah type of deities.

Really his statement is correct, before you can attribute something a deity has done you have to prove the deity is real. This has never been accomplished

We've come a long way in explaining our origins and the universe is quite an extraordinary place. When we can explain where it all came from we will have a better understanding of where we stand to the greater scheme of things. If we are the deities, since science is doing things that people used to reserve for gods, then so be it but whatever feats we are able to accomplish can't compare to the real source that we borrow everything from.

 

[outhouse]

When trying to consider origins the notion of a godlike figure is inevitable.

No its not.

Its a mistake

Until our origins are explained by science we answer it philosophically.

because we dont know a answer, we dont start attributing imagination.

then so be it but whatever feats we are able to accomplish can't compare to the real source that we borrow everything from.

what do we borrow?

 

[outhouse]

Either you can prove god exist or you cant, if you cant then you must admit man created him.

If man created him then you cannot attribute anything to such a concept.

its very plain and simple. produce evidence for a deity or quit saying he can do anything.

 

[Photonic]

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I noticed he said began but yes if he applied the same logic to god then he should end up with the same problem. Just copping out by saying God is eternal can just as easily be applied to the singularity for example. We can't explain where the singularity so placing God before what we know is the ultimate god of the gaps which is about the only place people have left to hide god since most everything else has natural explanations.

It seems to me as if you people are so eagar to negate the existence of God that you fail to actually.....think....you CANT TRACE BACK TIME TO PAST INFINITY...in order for time to begin, it has to be the effect of a timeless cause. Why is this fact being overlooked??? Its being overlooked and a lot of nonsensical jibberish is being said over and over again.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Why did you add "without beginning"?


"WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
eternal
adj 1: continuing forever or indefinitely; "the ageless themes
of love and revenge"; "eternal truths"; "life
everlasting"; "hell's perpetual fires"; "the unending
bliss of heaven" [syn: ageless, aeonian, eonian,
eternal, everlasting, perpetual, unending,
unceasing]
2: tiresomely long; seemingly without end; "endless debates";
"an endless conversation"; "the wait seemed eternal";
"eternal quarreling"; "an interminable sermon" [syn:
endless, eternal, interminable]

Eternity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

So if God exists then he needs a cause. Apply the same logic to your creator otherwise you still are not solving the infinite regression issue.

God never began to exist. Whatever the first cause was, i dont care if it was God or what you people call the Flying Spagetti monster, the first cause never began to exist. God is the Uncaused Cause.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I noticed he said began but yes if he applied the same logic to god then he should end up with the same problem. Just copping out by saying God is eternal can just as easily be applied to the singularity for example. We can't explain where the singularity so placing God before what we know is the ultimate god of the gaps which is about the only place people have left to hide god since most everything else has natural explanations.

Wow. I thought i addressed this elsewhere. If the singularity was infinite then why was our universe begin to exist only 13.7 billion years ago??? There is no answer to this whatsoever. But with God, the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago because that is when he choose to create it.

 

[YmirGF]

Either you can prove god exist or you cant, if you cant then you must admit man created him.

Indeed a whimsical idea does not a theory make. To assert that "god" precipitated the Big Bang is insulting to the hard science that is behind the Big Bang Theory. No such evidence exists for "god", no matter how hard some people may argue.

If man created him then you cannot attribute anything to such a concept.

Um, not so. If we created it, we can ascribe whatever qualities amuse us. Since those ludicrous assumptions cannot be disproved, the lesser thinkers pretend they sit on the high ground without acknowledging the fallacious nature of their - to be generous - thought.

its very plain and simple. produce evidence for a deity or quit saying he can do anything.

And unfortunately anecdotal evidence does not count for much in scientific circles. Such "evidence" tends to make a mockery of the scientific method.

 

[idav]

If the singularity was infinite then why was our universe begin to exist only 13.7 billion years ago??? There is no answer to this whatsoever. But with God, the universe began to exist 13.7 billion years ago because that is when he choose to create it.

That was the point existence began to expand. We calculate this by examining how fast everything is going and we bring it back to a single point. Your assuming that was when everything came to existence but we can't prove what was going on before the expansion took place. You create a time before the big bang by insterting god into the equation. Was there a time before the big bang, god time or universe time? If there was a time before expansion began then how can you say that was the point existence came to be?

 

[outhouse]

Um, not so. If we created it, we can ascribe whatever qualities amuse us. Since those ludicrous assumptions cannot be disproved, the lesser thinkers pretend they sit on the high ground without acknowledging the fallacious nature of their - to be generous - thought.

yep , you got me cold there.

And unfortunately anecdotal evidence does not count for much in scientific circles. Such "evidence" tends to make a mockery of the scientific method

Man I cant win

 

[gnostic]

That was the point existence began to expand. We calculate this by examining how fast everything is going and we bring it back to a single point. Your assuming that was when everything came to existence but we can't prove what was going on before the expansion took place. You create a time before the big bang by insterting god into the equation. Was there a time before the big bang, god time or universe time? If there was a time before expansion began then how can you say that was the point existence came to be?

Call of the Wild was basing ONLY on when the expansion/big bang started. He can't get through his thick head that what science know so far. We may know more in the future of what happen prior to the expansion, but he seem obsessed in nothing existed before that time, so it has to have a "cause" - god.

That's like going backward, like what technological backward people of the stone age or the superstitious ancient/medieval people would associate a natural phenomenon without single shred of evidence, beyond his "faith".

 

[outhouse]

That's like going backward, like what technological backward people of the stone age or the superstitious ancient/medieval people would associate a natural phenomenon without single shred of evidence, beyond his "faith".

exactly its the same mistake ancient and many modern men made and make.

God of the gaps

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

we can't prove what was going on before the expansion took place.

You are right, we cant prove what was going on, but we can determine based on trials and errors what kind of qualities the first cause had to have, and what kind of qualities the first cause couldnt have had. If the universe began to exist, and by universe i mean all space and time ANYWHERE, then its cause could not be dependent upon it, rather the universe is dependent upon the cause. So, the first cause could not be material, since the universe consists of matter, and it began to exist. The first cause could not be temporal (without the universe), because time came in to being WITH the universe. And the first cause couldnt be spatial, because space came in to being with the universe, after all, space is what expanded with the big bang. And the first cause had to be a being with tremendous power, able to create the universe from nothing. It is very important to appreciate that if the universe began to exist, whatever gave it its beginning HAD TO HAVE THESE CHARACTERISTICS. It is inescapable. There are no if's/and's or but's about it.

You create a time before the big bang by insterting god into the equation. Was there a time before the big bang, god time or universe time? If there was a time before expansion began then how can you say that was the point existence came to be?

Well obviously the first cause is transcendent from everything else. God was timeless before creation. It is hard for us to understand because we are temporal beings. God transcends time, in the sense it had no effect on him. It was a created thing by a timeless entity.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Call of the Wild was basing ONLY on when the expansion/big bang started. He can't get through his thick head that what science know so far. We may know more in the future of what happen prior to the expansion, but he seem obsessed in nothing existed before that time, so it has to have a "cause" - god.

Well actually, science has already started to postulate pre-big bang models. The only problem is, when you take away all the fluff and feathers, the models wind up predicting a beginning, which it sought to avoid. Second, once again, if it is a natural explanation you are seeking, you are getting back to infinite regression my friend. So a beginning of the universe is almost impossible to avoid, regardless of whether you try to do it through science or metaphysics.

 

[idav]

No its not.

Its a mistake




because we dont know a answer, we dont start attributing imagination.




what do we borrow?

We borrow from the source.

Either you can prove god exist or you cant, if you cant then you must admit man created him.

If man created him then you cannot attribute anything to such a concept.

its very plain and simple. produce evidence for a deity or quit saying he can do anything.

A good definition for god is the source of everything. I think a source should be implied so nothing to prove. What can't be proven are the attributes.

 

[idav]

It seems to me as if you people are so eagar to negate the existence of God that you fail to actually.....think....you CANT TRACE BACK TIME TO PAST INFINITY...in order for time to begin, it has to be the effect of a timeless cause. Why is this fact being overlooked??? Its being overlooked and a lot of nonsensical jibberish is being said over and over again.

There is no reason to put an agent outside the universe does not solve the issue, it just complicates it. Existence came about by no cause, this much we can agree on, but this also means that there is no need for a creator to cause it.

[youtube]uabNtlLfYyU[/youtube]
What Caused the Big Bang? - YouTube