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The Big Bang, Evolution, Creation, Life etc.

idav

Being
Premium Member
This is not special pleading for God, because atheists have always maintained that the universe is eternal. It just so happens that now we have PROOF that this isn't the case, so they can no longer think this. With respect to God, it is necessary that the cause be eternal, because if the cause isn't eternal, we are back to infinite regression, but we have reasons to believe that infinite regression is impossible, so there must be one uncaused cause, that doesn't depend on anything for its existence.
Your proof is just an interpretation. Just because it is expanding doesn't mean that point of the singularity was the beginning and just throwing in a timeless eternal creator doesn't solve the issue of infinite regression. Something had to come from no cause so I nominate the universe. Also we don't know the universe will expand forever because we don't know enough about why it is expanding the way it is. The complexity of what space-time is doesn't paint a clear picture of when the beginning was.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
Twisting of facts? Nope. Maybe if i was a theists in the early 1900's, that would have been true. But here in what will soon be 2012, I am on the bandwagon of modern science and cosmology. I don't need to twist facts, because science is on my side. The universe began to exist, just like Gen 1:1 tells us "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". The first 10 words of the bible. This was over 3,000 years before the first science text book was published. So it took 3,000 years for science to catch up with biblical teaching, which is the universe began to exists, and logically requires a transcendent cause. Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, believe it or not, these are the facts.

Ok, then the Hindu's and tribal creation myths are way ahead of your bible. :)


Beyond that the obvious fact that there is nothing scientific about the observation that there is light in the sky at night and we are standing on something solid.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
And second, your analogy is false. I won't conclude that cars and squirrels are both from Ford Motors, but i would conclude that they were both designed.
It is a marvel how one can be so aware of the science and yet have no problem with tacking on groundless assumptions to make the science conform to theology. Wonders never cease.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
WMAP RESULTS

Nancy Neal February 11, 2003
NASA Headquarters, Washington
(Phone: 202/358-2369)

Bill Steigerwald
Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
(Phone: 301/286-5017)

RELEASE: 03-064

NASA RELEASES STUNNING IMAGES OF OUR INFANT UNIVERSE

NASA today released the best "baby picture" of the Universe ever taken; the image contains such stunning detail that it may be one of the most important scientific results of recent years.

Scientists using NASA's Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP), during a sweeping 12-month observation of the entire sky, captured the new cosmic portrait, capturing the afterglow of the big bang, called the cosmic microwave background.

"We've captured the infant universe in sharp focus, and from this portrait we can now describe the universe with unprecedented accuracy," said Dr. Charles L. Bennett of the Goddard Space Flight Center (GSFC), Greenbelt Md., and the WMAP Principal Investigator. "The data are solid, a real gold mine," he said.

One of the biggest surprises revealed in the data is the first generation of stars to shine in the universe first ignited only 200 million years after the big bang, much earlier than many scientists had expected.

In addition, the new portrait precisely pegs the age of the universe at 13.7 billion years old, with a remarkably small one percent margin of error.

The WMAP team found that the big bang and Inflation theories continue to ring true. The contents of the universe include 4 percent atoms (ordinary matter), 23 percent of an unknown type of dark matter, and 73 percent of a mysterious dark energy. The new measurements even shed light on the nature of the dark energy, which acts as a sort of an anti-gravity.

"These numbers represent a milestone in how we view our universe," said Dr. Anne Kinney, NASA director for astronomy and physics. "This is a true turning point for cosmology."

The light we see today, as the cosmic microwave background, has traveled over 13 billion years to reach us. Within this light are infinitesimal patterns that mark the seeds of what later grew into clusters of galaxies and the vast structure we see all around us.

Patterns in the big bang afterglow were frozen in place only 380,000 years after the big bang, a number nailed down by this latest observation. These patterns are tiny temperature differences within this extraordinarily evenly dispersed microwave light bathing the universe, which now averages a frigid 2.73 degrees above absolute zero temperature. WMAP resolves slight temperature fluctuations, which vary by only millionths of a degree.

Theories about the evolution of the universe make specific predictions about the extent of these temperature patterns. Like a detective, the WMAP team compared the unique "fingerprint" of patterns imprinted on this ancient light with fingerprints predicted by various cosmic theories and found a match.

WMAP 1 Year Mission Results Press Release


WMAP%20CMB_Timeline_thumb%5B1%5D.jpg




So we have visable Hubble space telescope pictures going back around 10-13 billion years when the galaxies were smaller and different to how they have evolved and look today. The red shift learned in the late 20's by hubble and the wmap data and soon the Planck satellite data.

There was NO matter when the universe began. Some trillions of years in the future as the universe ages there will be a time when matter won't exist again.

So a "designer" designed a universe with entrophy and random events where matter would basically cease to exist in the future.

Did this "designer" "personally" guide a planet into a collision with earth to form our moon?

So this designer created a universe that just gets more chaotic with time?


"It is a matter of common experience, that things get more disordered and chaotic with time. This observation can be elevated to the status of a law, the so-called Second Law of Thermodynamics."

Some also still don't understand the weak anthropic principle.

Cosmology is just now starting to be able to ask the questions and look for evidence on what happened before the bang.




"
These concordances between theory and observation are impressive, and have convinced cosmologists that the idea of a hot big-bang origin for the Universe is correct. But people still feel compelled to ask: what happened before the big bang? What actually caused it? Where did all the matter and energy come from?
Unfortunately, many popular accounts give a grossly misleading picture of the nature of the big bang. It is often depicted as the explosion of a compressed lump of matter in a pre-existing void. But no physical theory could explain why, after an infinite duration of emptiness and inactivity, a big bang should suddenly occur at some arbitrary moment in time.
In fact, it has been clear since the work of the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann in the 1920s that the big bang represents the origin of time itself - and, indeed, space. The big bang did not happen at a particular moment in time; it was the beginning of time. There was no epoch "before" the big bang for us to discuss."

This idea may seem baffling, but it is scarcely new. Already in the fifth century, St Augustine proclaimed that "the world was made with time and not in time". Augustine's proposal finds support from Albert Einstein. Before the theory of relativity, scientists thought of time and space as simply there. But Einstein showed that they are integral parts of the physical Universe, like matter. As with matter, time and space can be affected by physical processes; for example, they can be warped by gravitation.
Clearly, if time and space are part of the physical Universe, then any account of the origin of the Universe must include the origin of time and space too. This is easily said, but it is hard to envisage time and space coming into being from nothing. Consequently, when cosmologists say there was "nothing" before the big bang, people suspect verbal trickery, as if whatever it was that existed before is sneakily being called "nothing" to conceal ignorance.
However, that is not the sense in which the word nothing is being used. Stephen Hawking has remarked that the answer to the question "what lies north of the North Pole?" is also nothing. That doesn't mean there is a mysterious land called Nothing beyond the North Pole. It means the region concerned simply does not exist; it is not defined. The question is meaningless. In the same way, the question of what happened before the big bang is meaningless because it refers to a non-existent epoch.
Nevertheless, we are so steeped in the notion of cause and effect that we feel cheated when told that the Universe just popped into being, complete with its own space and time, like a rabbit from a cosmic magician's hat. Even if we are forbidden to ask what caused the big bang, in the usual sense of causation, we can still ask for an explanation. Why should a Universe come into existence in that manner?
Until a few years ago, scientists had no answer to this ultimate question. One simply had to accept, as a brute fact, that the Universe originated in a big bang. The job of the scientist was to describe the Universe after it had come into existence. The sudden "switching on" of time at the beginning was regarded as a singular occurrence about which science had nothing particularly useful to say. This hands-off state of affairs was transformed with the realisation that quantum physics provides a loophole to evade the normal strictures of cause and effect. Quantum mechanics is the branch of physics that describes the micro-world of atoms and subatomic particles. The idea of applying quantum mechanics to the Universe as a whole therefore seems bizarre. However, if the Universe was once exceedingly compressed, there must have been a time when quantum effects were of cosmic importance."

Is the Universe a free lunch? - Arts & Entertainment - The Independent


I also wonder where this "diety" was when the early universe was 10 trillion degree's, was this "diety" in this plasma while designing?

It has been shown you can start a universe without a "diety." of course it hasn't been shown one way or another if there is a 'diety" or more then one "diety" even.

Most cosmologists nowadays don't believe this is the only universe and our searching for evidence.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Ok, then the Hindu's and tribal creation myths are way ahead of your bible. :)


Beyond that the obvious fact that there is nothing scientific about the observation that there is light in the sky at night and we are standing on something solid.

Cute. Did the Hindu and tribal creation myths predict an expanding universe?? No, but the Christian creation story does.

Job 9:8 "He alone STRETCHES out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea"

Ps 104:2 "The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he STRETCHES out the heavens like a tent"

Isaiah 42:5 "This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who STRETCHES them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it".

Jere 10:12 "But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and STRETCHES out the heavens by his understanding."

Zech 12:1 "The LORD, who STRETCHES out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person..."

At least five different accounts of the bible predicting a stretching universe thousands of years before Edwin Hubble looked through his telescope and discovered the same thing. Did the Hindu tribal religions do such a thing? :no: So don't compare bootleg versions to the real thing.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
Cute. Did the Hindu and tribal creation myths predict an expanding universe?? No, but the Christian creation story does.

Job 9:8 "He alone STRETCHES out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea"

Ps 104:2 "The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he STRETCHES out the heavens like a tent"

Isaiah 42:5 "This is what God the LORD says— the Creator of the heavens, who STRETCHES them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it".

Jere 10:12 "But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and STRETCHES out the heavens by his understanding."

Zech 12:1 "The LORD, who STRETCHES out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person..."

At least five different accounts of the bible predicting a stretching universe thousands of years before Edwin Hubble looked through his telescope and discovered the same thing. Did the Hindu tribal religions do such a thing? :no: So don't compare bootleg versions to the real thing.

Science writers Carl Sagan and Fritjof Capra have pointed out similarities between what they consider the latest scientific understanding of the age of the universe, and the Hindu concept of a "day and night of Brahma", which is much closer to the current assumed age of the universe than other creation myths (when taken literally). The days and nights of Brahma posit a view of the universe that is divinely created, and is not strictly evolutionary, but an ongoing cycle of birth, death, and rebirth of the universe. According to Sagan:
The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scale still.[9]

Game, set, match.

I'm sure there are plenty of scripture points that could be posted by some of our vedic members to support Carl Sagans point.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Your proof is just an interpretation. Just because it is expanding doesn't mean that point of the singularity was the beginning

According to the theory, yes it does.

and just throwing in a timeless eternal creator doesn't solve the issue of infinite regression.

A timeless being does not go through infinite regression. A timeless being is outside of time and enters time only at the moment of creation.

Something had to come from no cause so I nominate the universe.

So, you are either saying the universe is infinite or it created itself. We already have evidence that the universe began to exist, and to deny this is to deny science, which has become a pattern on this board. The universe began to exist. Point blank. Period. Whether you like it or not.

Also we don't know the universe will expand forever because we don't know enough about why it is expanding the way it is. The complexity of what space-time is doesn't paint a clear picture of when the beginning was.

This is the last time i will repeat myself on this issue. Studies have shown that the universe will expand forever, yet you are telling me what we don't know. Well, we DO know that the universe will expand forever, and i've already stated why. You people can either deal with what we know, or you people can continue to act ignorantly and keep showing me that your not up to date on modern cosmology. The universe will expand forever. It has been shown. It is a fact. Deal with it.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
According to the theory, yes it does.



A timeless being does not go through infinite regression. A timeless being is outside of time and enters time only at the moment of creation.



So, you are either saying the universe is infinite or it created itself. We already have evidence that the universe began to exist, and to deny this is to deny science, which has become a pattern on this board. The universe began to exist. Point blank. Period. Whether you like it or not.



This is the last time i will repeat myself on this issue. Studies have shown that the universe will expand forever, yet you are telling me what we don't know. Well, we DO know that the universe will expand forever, and i've already stated why. You people can either deal with what we know, or you people can continue to act ignorantly and keep showing me that your not up to date on modern cosmology. The universe will expand forever. It has been shown. It is a fact. Deal with it.

Science changes, we thought the universe would end in a big crunch not ten years ago. That was fact too. As a physicist and even more so as a scientist I would NEVER claim it to be set forever.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Science writers Carl Sagan and Fritjof Capra have pointed out similarities between what they consider the latest scientific understanding of the age of the universe, and the Hindu concept of a "day and night of Brahma", which is much closer to the current assumed age of the universe than other creation myths (when taken literally).

I am not a young earth creationist and i don't take the creation account literally. So no problems here.

The days and nights of Brahma posit a view of the universe that is divinely created, and is not strictly evolutionary, but an ongoing cycle of birth, death, and rebirth of the universe. According to Sagan:
The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scale still.[9]

Game, set, match.

I'm sure there are plenty of scripture points that could be posted by some of our vedic members to support Carl Sagans point.

None of this address the fact that the bible predicts a expanding universe and no other religion say such a thing. The scriptures speak for itself. The universe was expanding then and it is expanding now.
 

Photonic

Ad astra!
I am not a young earth creationist and i don't take the creation account literally. So no problems here.



None of this address the fact that the bible predicts a expanding universe and no other religion say such a thing. The scriptures speak for itself. The universe was expanding then and it is expanding now.

Given that you clearly know little outside of your own religion I'm not surprised you have such convictions in your statement. You are incorrect.


In the Hindu religion the cycle of the universe is started by expansion of a golden egg.

Thousands of years before your bible, thousands of years before the abrahamic religions existed.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
According to the theory, yes it does.



A timeless being does not go through infinite regression. A timeless being is outside of time and enters time only at the moment of creation.



So, you are either saying the universe is infinite or it created itself. We already have evidence that the universe began to exist, and to deny this is to deny science, which has become a pattern on this board. The universe began to exist. Point blank. Period. Whether you like it or not.



This is the last time i will repeat myself on this issue. Studies have shown that the universe will expand forever, yet you are telling me what we don't know. Well, we DO know that the universe will expand forever, and i've already stated why. You people can either deal with what we know, or you people can continue to act ignorantly and keep showing me that your not up to date on modern cosmology. The universe will expand forever. It has been shown. It is a fact. Deal with it.


"A timeless being is outside of time and enters time only at the moment of creation. "

This creates a problem with space-time. If this "timeless being" is outside of time and space?


"We already have evidence that the universe began to exist,"

Yes, but that doesn't mean there wasn't something before it for a fact. Just that this universe began to exist in a certain state. Some major cosmologists think its possible black holes could create new universes. There are other theories out there and you still have there are equal amounts of positive and negative energy in the universe and they cancel each other out to EXACTLY 0.


The bible says "in the begining" not anything about expansion. Nor does it have the order and progression right. It does match very closely to what the anceint sumerians believed before the bible.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
According to the theory, yes it does.
The theory explains expansion not the beginning of the universe.

A timeless being does not go through infinite regression. A timeless being is outside of time and enters time only at the moment of creation.
How convenient, why don't just say it was magic.



So, you are either saying the universe is infinite or it created itself. We already have evidence that the universe began to exist, and to deny this is to deny science, which has become a pattern on this board. The universe began to exist. Point blank. Period. Whether you like it or not.
Just like your assertion, either god is eternal or he created himself. You need to believe that the universe began to exist but what began is a change in the state of existence not the beginning of existence itself.

This is the last time i will repeat myself on this issue. Studies have shown that the universe will expand forever, yet you are telling me what we don't know. Well, we DO know that the universe will expand forever, and i've already stated why. You people can either deal with what we know, or you people can continue to act ignorantly and keep showing me that your not up to date on modern cosmology. The universe will expand forever. It has been shown. It is a fact. Deal with it.
I don't care whether it goes on expanding or not but we don't know enough really. If we do know then you shouldn't have any problem explaining why dark matter is making the universe expand faster than the speed of light and you should also be able to explain the structure of space-time and exactly how you know it won't spring back as opposed to being ripped apart.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
The Borde/Guth/Vilenkin theorem you seem to be so happy about is about the average expansion rate.

The only requirement is for it to be expanding at a rate higher than 0. That is the only requirment. So no matter how fast or how slow, as long as its expansion rate is higher than 0.

The expantion rate at the present time is greater than zero. Yes. I trust we agree on that.

:beach:

If you look at an oscillating universe then the average expansion rate would be equal to zero.

So is this what we've come to? You are touting the oscillating model?? Really? First of all, in order for the universe to oscillate, there has to be mass density sufficient enough to gravitational attractions that is required to halt and reverse the expansion. There was actually a test done on this in 1998, astronauts from Princeton, Yale, Harvard and the Lawrence Berkely National Lab (Associated Press News Release, Janurary 9, 1998). They determined the exact opposite, that THE DENSITY OF MATTER IS INSUFFICIENT TO HALT THE EXPANSION OF THE UNIVERSE. So you are being a spokesperson for a theory that has already been disregarded.

My point? Just because the current expansion rate is greater than zero does not mean the the average expansion rate is greater than zero. So I ask you again what evidende is there that average expansion rate is greater than zero?

I want you to do me a favor...watch this video, it is short and it won't waste your time. This is Robert Spitzer going over the BVG theorem and its implication, it is quite entertaining. The first clip will be of Dr. William Lane Craig discussing the BGV, but Spitzer is much more depth in the assessment. And towards the very end he discuss your oscillating theory according to the BGV. Enjoy.

[youtube]ub6vKrRWGYA[/youtube]
The Borde Guth Vilenkin Theorem - Part 1 - YouTube
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
The theory explains expansion not the beginning of the universe.

Wow. I repeat "Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning with the big bang" (Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose, The Nature of Space and Time). He didn't say "Almost everyone now believes the universe, and time itself, had an expansion (which it did, but that wasnt the point he was driving home), he said "a BEGINNING". :D

How convenient, why don't just say it was magic.

Ok, it was magic, and God is the magician pulling the universe out of the hat.



Just like your assertion, either god is eternal or he created himself. You need to believe that the universe began to exist but what began is a change in the state of existence not the beginning of existence itself.

Well, a change in the state of existence assumes that something existed in order to change states. Going back to infinite regression, I see.

I don't care whether it goes on expanding or not but we don't know enough really. If we do know then you shouldn't have any problem explaining why dark matter is making the universe expand faster than the speed of light and you should also be able to explain the structure of space-time and exactly how you know it won't spring back as opposed to being ripped apart.

We dont have to have every single conceivable questioned answered. We are going with what we do know. And that is that the universe began to exist, and therefore, it requires a transcendent cause.
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Given that you clearly know little outside of your own religion I'm not surprised you have such convictions in your statement. You are incorrect.


In the Hindu religion the cycle of the universe is started by expansion of a golden egg.

Thousands of years before your bible, thousands of years before the abrahamic religions existed.


Even at this silly account of creation, it is the egg that expanded, not the universe. Second, after reading Hinduism and even on wikipedia, i see no such expansion account.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Wow. I repeat "Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning with the big bang" (Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose, The Nature of Space and Time). He didn't say "Almost everyone now believes the universe, and time itself, had an expansion (which it did, but that wasnt the point he was driving home), he said "a BEGINNING". :D
And theists take beginning to mean creation is a leap of faith.


Ok, it was magic, and God is the magician pulling the universe out of the hat.
Apply the same rules of infinite regression to the creator please.

Well, a change in the state of existence assumes that something existed in order to change states. Going back to infinite regression, I see.
Just using the same method you use to being eternal to God. I apply the same thing to the universe.

All the big bang explains is the expansion of substance that already existed. I say it always existed. Law of thermodynamics states that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, they can however change states under the right conditions.

This would mean that matter has always existed in one form or another. Can you prove otherwise?

We dont have to have every single conceivable questioned answered. We are going with what we do know. And that is that the universe began to exist, and therefore, it requires a transcendent cause.
Those are fundamental questions we ask to find out what the state of the universe will be in the future. It does not require a transcendent cause or else so does the creator.
 

terryboy

Member
I don't know how the universe began to exist, for what I know is that we don't know what happened before the Planck Epoch. Please enlighten me
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Wow. I repeat "Almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning with the big bang" (Stephen Hawking and Roger Penrose, The Nature of Space and Time). He didn't say "Almost everyone now believes the universe, and time itself, had an expansion (which it did, but that wasnt the point he was driving home), he said "a BEGINNING". :D



Ok, it was magic, and God is the magician pulling the universe out of the hat.





Well, a change in the state of existence assumes that something existed in order to change states. Going back to infinite regression, I see.



We dont have to have every single conceivable questioned answered. We are going with what we do know. And that is that the universe began to exist, and therefore, it requires a transcendent cause.

And that is that the universe began to exist, and therefore, it requires a transcendent cause.

So what what your saying here is we don't have all the answers to a 'god did it." Could have been aliens in another universe. Could have come from black holes and or multiverses. Could have come from "nothing" and NOT broken any laws of nature or physics.

A Universe from Nothing
Astronomical Society of the Pacific


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Insights from modern physics suggest that our wondrous universe may be the ultimate free lunch.[/FONT]


"All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The idea of a zero-energy universe, together with inflation, suggests that all one needs is just a tiny bit of energy to get the whole thing started (that is, a tiny volume of energy in which inflation can begin). The universe then experiences inflationary expansion, but without creating net energy.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]What produced the energy before inflation? This is perhaps the ultimate question. As crazy as it might seem, the energy may have come out of nothing! The meaning of "nothing" is somewhat ambiguous here. It might be the vacuum in some pre-existing space and time, or it could be nothing at all – that is, all concepts of space and time were created with the universe itself.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Quantum theory, and specifically Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, provide a natural explanation for how that energy may have come out of nothing. Throughout the universe, particles and antiparticles spontaneously form and quickly annihilate each other without violating the law of energy conservation. These spontaneous births and deaths of so-called "virtual particle" pairs are known as "quantum fluctuations." Indeed, laboratory experiments have proven that quantum fluctuations occur everywhere, all the time. Virtual particle pairs (such as electrons and positrons) directly affect the energy levels of atoms, and the predicted energy levels disagree with the experimentally measured levels unless quantum fluctuations are taken into account.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Perhaps many quantum fluctuations occurred before the birth of our universe. Most of them quickly disappeared. But one lived sufficiently long and had the right conditions for inflation to have been initiated. Thereafter, the original tiny volume inflated by an enormous factor, and our macroscopic universe was born. The original particle-antiparticle pair (or pairs) may have subsequently annihilated each other – but even if they didn’t, the violation of energy conservation would be minuscule, not large enough to be measurable."[/FONT]
[/FONT]

ASP: A Universe from Nothing


Call_of_the_Wild

Where was this "transcendent cause" when there was no time and space in this universe? Or when the universe was 10 trillion degree's?

what do you think this "transcendent cause" is made out of?
 
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