The big bang, something from nothing?

[MonkeyFire]

So no creation, or big bang... just eternity?

I can tell you, there's only thing worse than suffering and that is repeating suffering forever, you better believe and wish to be

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can tell you, there's only thing worse than suffering and that is repeating suffering forever, you better believe and wish to be

It sounds like you are saying that God is an immoral monster.

 

[Thief]

You and I are both apes. Spirituality appears to be an emergent property.

If you want to claim a God, the burden of proof is upon you.

if you deny Cause and effect.....

show the escape clause

 

[Subduction Zone]

if you deny Cause and effect.....

show the escape clause

Quantum mechanics..

ETA: There is no actual "Law of Cause and Effect" in science at any rate.

 

[ecco]

Someone had to be....First

Why someone? Why not something?

if substance first....then we are a product of a complex accident

if substance first....then we are a product of a complex series of natural events.


If someone...then how did "the First" come to be?

and we have no hope beyond the last breath

Everyone and everything ceases to exist. That doesn't frighten me.

and Man is then a mystery with no resolve

Is that so bad? Tens of thousands of years ago lightning and thunder was an unresolved mystery. Man said GodDidIt. Man was wrong, GodDidIt was never the right answer.

It is understandable that ignorant man of tens of thousands of years ago would say GodDidIt. Today, there is no excuse.

 

[ecco]

The effort that the authors of Genesis went through to steer clear of directly validating the power of nature and the goddess to reduce Eve to an optional sidekick is hilarious. I think, however, that the authors of Genesis were aware of this humor.

I doubt the Men telling the creation stories that ended up being written down in the Tora/OT were trying to inject humor into the situation. Making Women secondary and subservient to Men was part of the culture.

 

[ecco]

According to the atheist scientist Stephen Hawking, the great fireball from which this universe was created, spontaneously appeared out of nothing, because he believed that before the BB there was no time for anything to have existed in.

― Stephen Hawking --- “The role played by time at the beginning of the universe is, I believe, the final key to removing the need for a Grand Designer, and revealing how the universe created itself. … Time itself must come to a stop. You can’t get to a time before the big bang, because there was no time before the big bang. We have finally found something that does not have a cause because there was no time for a cause to exist in. For me this means there is no possibility of a creator because there is no time for a creator to have existed. Since time itself began at the moment of the Big Bang, it was an event that could not have been caused or created by anyone or anything. … So when people ask me if a god created the universe, I tell them the question itself makes no sense. Time didn’t exist before the Big Bang, so there is no time for God to make the universe in. It’s like asking for directions to the edge of the Earth. The Earth is a sphere. It does not have an edge, so looking for it is a futile exercise.”​

Of course, one would have to have a lot of faith in Hawking to believe that.

The alternative is one of thousands of creation stories. You happen to believe the one the Jews described many years ago. That is the story that an eternal entity, one with no beginning and no end, created the Universe.

Of course, one would have to have a lot of faith in the ancient Jews to believe that.

 

[The Anointed]

The alternative is one of thousands of creation stories. You happen to believe the one the Jews described many years ago. That is the story that an eternal entity, one with no beginning and no end, created the Universe.

Of course, one would have to have a lot of faith in the ancient Jews to believe that.

The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.

In the beginning of this universe at the moment of the Big Bang, there was nothing but the eternal energy which cannot be created or destroyed and it was from this eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that the universe and all within it, which includes all life forms, was created.

If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become.

That which has neither beginning or end, is the collective consciousness of all that it has become and manifests itself as this material universe.

Romans 1:18-23 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being etc.

God is the sum total of all that exists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.

In the beginning of this universe at the moment of the Big Bang, there was nothing but the eternal energy which cannot be created or destroyed and it was from this eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that the universe and all within it, which includes all life forms, was created.

If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is the compilation of all the information gathered by all the diverse life-forms that it [The Eternal Energy] has become.

That which has neither beginning or end, is the collective consciousness of all that it has become and manifests itself as this material universe.

Romans 1:18-23 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being etc.

God is the sum total of all that exists.

The total energy of the universe is zero. At least to the best of our ability to measure it. Therefore a "Universe From Nothing" does not violate the first law of thermodynamics.

 

[The Anointed]

The total energy of the universe is zero. At least to the best of our ability to measure it. Therefore a "Universe From Nothing" does not violate the first law of thermodynamics.

So you accept the hypothesis that the total energy of the universe is zero. [Hypothesis : "An assertion subject to verification or proof----- A proposition stated as a basis for argument or reasoning..... A theory supported by no objective evidence.....A groundless assumption.....An assumption used as the basis for action...... proposal, suggestion, supposition.]

Matter is created from atoms, which are created from subatomic particles, that are created by wave particles, which are not particles at all and are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang, which energy has coalesced into this seemingly material universe and all herein.

All matter can be and will be reconverted back to the energy from which it is created, when it is ripped apart as it falls as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss, which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

 

[Altfish]

So you accept the hypothesis that the total energy of the universe is zero. [Hypothesis : "An assertion subject to verification or proof----- A proposition stated as a basis for argument or reasoning..... A theory supported by no objective evidence.....A groundless assumption.....An assumption used as the basis for action...... proposal, suggestion, supposition.]

Matter is created from atoms, which are created from subatomic particles, that are created by wave particles, which are not particles at all and are the quantum of the electromagnetic energy that was spewed out in the trillions and trillions of degrees in the event that is called the Big Bang, which energy has coalesced into this seemingly material universe and all herein.

All matter can be and will be reconverted back to the energy from which it is created, when it is ripped apart as it falls as massive columns of fire beyond all measure in height and depth into the Great Abyss, which is the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven.

You are very confident about this, why don't you write a paper on the subject and await the Nobel Prize?

 

[Polymath257]

The law of conservation of energy, also known as the first law of thermodynamics, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant—it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe itself is a closed system, so the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, are constantly changing.

There are many subtleties here. First, the law of conservation of energy, properly stated, says that the total amount of energy at one time is the same as the total amount of energy at any other time.

A problem arises if time itself has a beginning (which it does in general relativity--more about this later). In that case, the law only applies *after* the beginning of time. But the beginning of the universe and the beginning of time are the same, so you can't say anything about the energy of the universe at its beginning.

Another subtlety: in general relativity, the energy of a particle is one component o the energy-momentum vector. But, because of spacetime curvature (i.e, gravity), it turns out that computing the 'total energy' is an ambiguous operation. In essence, you need to translate the energy-momentum vector to one point to add things up, but the curvature *ensures* that the answer will depend on the path used to do the translation.

The only way to avoid this issue is to take into account curvature as one part of the total energy. But if you do that, then the total energy is always zero. In essence, the energy of curvature (i.e, gravity) is negative and cancels that of matter. That means there is no issue from energy conservation for the formation of the universe.

Now, when we add in quantum mechanics to this mix, a number of things happen. The most important is that very fast violations of energy conservation *are* allowed. The effect has even been measured. In the context of cosmology, there are two big changes: the first is that singularities tend to be 'smoothed out', allowing time to be infinite into the past, and the second is that those small, allowed violations can expand and form situations like our early universe. Again, no overall violation of energy conservation is produced.

 

[Thief]

if substance first....then we are a product of a complex series of natural events.


If someone...then how did "the First" come to be?



Everyone and everything ceases to exist. That doesn't frighten me.


Is that so bad? Tens of thousands of years ago lightning and thunder was an unresolved mystery. Man said GodDidIt. Man was wrong, GodDidIt was never the right answer.

It is understandable that ignorant man of tens of thousands of years ago would say GodDidIt. Today, there is no excuse.

numbers.....you believe in numbers, don't you?

and the odds that no one survives the last breath would be what......?
none at all?

7billion+ possibilities and not one chance?
none

I don't believe that

and then to assume no One would be waiting to see what stands from the dust?

not buying the idea....this is all one massive accident?
no
I'm not buying it

 

[Thief]

Quantum mechanics..

ETA: There is no actual "Law of Cause and Effect" in science at any rate.

well then.....so much for experimentation and proof



now I can post anything and call it real
and no repeatable experiment required

oh wait.....I've been posting THAT .....for YEARS!

 

[sealchan]

I doubt the Men telling the creation stories that ended up being written down in the Tora/OT were trying to inject humor into the situation. Making Women secondary and subservient to Men was part of the culture.

Ridicule can be a strong basis for maintaining an appearance of superiority. Also part of the culture were strong local goddess traditions that continually threatened the desired patriarchal bias.

 

[Subduction Zone]

well then.....so much for experimentation and proof



now I can post anything and call it real
and no repeatable experiment required

oh wait.....I've been posting THAT .....for YEARS!

Experimentation does not offer "proof" it only offers confirmation, not quite the same thing.

And you do not appear to understand the scientific method. All concepts in science are at best accepted provisionally. A concept can be shown to be wrong in science, it can never be proven to be right. In the sciences one develops an explanation that needs to be able to cover all elements of an observed phenomenon. Whether it is how a ball drops or how a bacterium reproduces, one needs to first explain what one sees. Then one must think what one would see if your theory is wrong and see if that occurs. For evolution you have the classic example of the Precambrian Bunny Rabbit (there are actually many more tests but that is the most obvious). In the sciences an untestable idea is all but worthless. When an idea is shown to be wrong we can learn from it. Untestable ideas are probably usually wrong, but since nothing can be learned from them they earn the epithet "not even wrong".

 

[Thief]

Experimentation does not offer "proof" it only offers confirmation, not quite the same thing.

A concept can be shown to be wrong in science, it can never be proven to be right.

so much for your postwork

 

[Subduction Zone]

so much for your postwork

What part of that did you not understand?

 

[sealchan]

Experimentation does not offer "proof" it only offers confirmation, not quite the same thing.

And you do not appear to understand the scientific method. All concepts in science are at best accepted provisionally. A concept can be shown to be wrong in science, it can never be proven to be right. In the sciences one develops an explanation that needs to be able to cover all elements of an observed phenomenon. Whether it is how a ball drops or how a bacterium reproduces, one needs to first explain what one sees. Then one must think what one would see if your theory is wrong and see if that occurs. For evolution you have the classic example of the Precambrian Bunny Rabbit (there are actually many more tests but that is the most obvious). In the sciences an untestable idea is all but worthless. When an idea is shown to be wrong we can learn from it. Untestable ideas are probably usually wrong, but since nothing can be learned from them they earn the epithet "not even wrong".

But science itself is so not wrong that we can be talking like this on little glowy boxes! How much money has been made by inventors from science being un-wrong I wonder...

Science transforms the world, heals the sick, etc. all while humbly holding up its truths as approximations at best. Sounds like the ideal attitude for a Christian.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Also if our universe's start needed no external influence of another universe, than the idea of a multiverse may become largely irrelevant.

Good point, and something I've been thinking about a lot lately...

If the effects of these multiverses on our current state of being don't amount to much, then what does it really matter? In that same vein, however, I guess it would be possible to assume that the homeostatic relationship of all of the current multiverses would be required for the continued existence of each other. The foundation of our primary laws may be hinged upon the coexistence of these seemingly disconnected planes.