The Book Of Mormon

[robocop (actually)]

The Book of Mormon says that there will be few members.

See the circular logic in asking if its commonly regarded as scientific?

 

[Unfettered]

The Book of Mormon says that there will be few members.

See the circular logic in asking if its commonly regarded as scientific?

Could you explain what you're meaning to say? I'm not exactly following...

 

[Audie]

Lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints here. I have seen assertions of such evidence. I have heard arguments against those assertions. I find all that commotion intriguing. If that wants to be the focus of someone's interest in the church, enjoy the ride.

Being a bit cheeky, when I was approached
by LDS missionary in HK, I asked him how he could
believe such a ridiculous story.
I found some interest in his answer.

Would you care to give it a try?

 

[Audie]

Like some of the others here, i tried to read the book of Mormon and did not last very long. The chapters i did manage to get through were so absurd i had no option but to stop citing a complete lack of intelligent stimulation. It was ridiculous nonsense.

I follow the Bible simply because, whilst one cannot prove God, the vast majority of historical places, dates/times, and people in the people can easily be proven to have existed in and around when the Bible says they did. We have a ton of physical evidence from a large variety of sources that support its narrative 100%. That is not something one will find with the book of Mormon...its nothing short of a fictional fairytale by a delusional individual who leads a group who got themselves not only run right out of one US state, he was eventually killed in a shootout with a linchmob. This was because of his persecution of townfolk and their murmurings against his idealogy, by destroying a rival printing press owned by individuals who disagreed with his outrageous doctrines and way of life...hardly the characteristics of a Godly man.

Whilst i believe that God has his hand over all religious denominations, im struggling with the idea that he has any guiding influence in Mormonism and for good reason...the aim of Mormonism is to become God (which is antibiblical and is exactly the claim Satan made to Eve when he tricked her into eating the fruit in the garden of Eden..."you will become like God")

You can't prove or disprove God. Yep.

Named places and people can be confirmed. Yep.

Supernatural events, though, the " god" part,
are problematic.

What do you do with ones that can be disproved?

 

[Âmephrère Vieuxillité]

AdamjEdgar, I appreciate your comments. In fact, I do believe that modern Christian principles represent the best of religious principles for society. However, I also recognize that Christian teachings, especially those adopted from Judaism, are as absurd as what you say have found in the Book of Mormon. Donkeys don't talk except among Canaanites/Jews. Water does not turn to blood (although chemical reactions or dissolution of soils could cause water to appear reddish). The sun never freezes in the sky nor does the earth stop rotating. I do not believe anyone became salt in the literal sense, and I do not believe God is so active in the world that he would change a person into salt, or stop the earth from rotating, or make a spectacle of himself by showing up as a pillar of fire sometimes and a pillar of "smoke" other times.

The principles of self-control, compassion, forgiveness, charity are noble principles. The details of the history in their presentation are much less important.

The one absurdity I see in the beliefs of some, not all, Christians is that if one does not believe in Jesus (curious phrase, that "believe in"), then one is doomed to eternity in hell. What injustice! Is there really any crime that a person could possibly commit that would have truly eternal consequences? Any loss by theft, arson, even murder (according to the book of Job) can be compensated in some way. If I were to commit a crime today, would ten trillion years of torture be enough? Many murderers get only life imprisonment, less than a century of punishment. And many Christians believe a murderer can repent, believe in Jesus, accept Jesus as their savior, and then will endure no punishment whatsoever in the next life. Murder is a very concrete act. Belief is not. And the lack of belief in the absence of concrete evidence should not be punished with an eternity of hellfire. There is no possible infinite crime which could deserve an impossible infinite punishment.

To quote Mukundananda:
"Similar controversies have raged in Europe over the historicity of Christ and events of his life as described in the Bible. Such a debate may have significance for historians but is not important from a spiritual view point. After all, does it matter whether Jesus was actually born in Nazareth or Bethlehem, as long as we can benefit from his teachings and live the sacred life in accordance with his instructions?"

 

[Âmephrère Vieuxillité]

How can anyone know whether or not "you cannot prove God exists". Doesn't that require an infinite amount of knowledge, or at least as much as precedes discovering the proof? In fact there are a number of proofs. The problem isn't actually the quality of the proofs. It is the willingness to understand and accept any of them, even conidtionally. There are some people who would not believe in "God" even if "God" appeared directly in front of them, took them on a tour of the universe, showed them heaven and hell. They would respond with, "I was imagining it." Or, "It was a trick of some sort." Would such people believe there is such a Thing as "God" even if they themselves became that "God"? I doubt it.

By "God", I do not mean the Christian God, nor the God of other monotheistic systems. By "God" I mean the unconditioned transcendent reality that undergirds everything, the origin and cause of existence. AS one of my favorite scriptures says, "neither being nor non-being, neither existent nor non-existent".

 

[Unfettered]

Being a bit cheeky, when I was approached
by LDS missionary in HK, I asked him how he could
believe such a ridiculous story.
I found some interest in his answer.

Would you care to give it a try?

Well, it's not the topic of the thread, but I'd have to say that I can't offer just one reason why I believe Joseph Smith's testimony. Many things bear on the question. To be brief, I've never found a substantive reason not to believe it. That's clearly not the whole story, but needs to suffice in this thread, I think.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Could you explain what you're meaning to say? I'm not exactly following...

The Book of Mormon says there will be few members compared to the earth's population.

So if it isn't scientific it may be wrong.
But if it is scientific the above statement means that scientists will either mess up evaluating it or be dishonest.

But I believe it is scientific simply because the things I've seen I can't deny.

 

[Unfettered]

The Book of Mormon says there will be few members compared to the earth's population.

So if it isn't scientific it may be wrong.
But if it is scientific the above statement means that scientists will either mess up evaluating it or be dishonest.

But I believe it is scientific simply because the things I've seen I can't deny.

I see. I understand it to be prophetic, confirmed by observations in the present. Sounds like we might be arriving at the same point via different routes?

 

[stvdv]

Whoever claims there is no evidence for [fill in the blank, from religion to science to history]" is a either a partisan or a dilettante, ideologically motivated or quick at passing judgement.

Thank you for your post on Mormons

Whoever claims there is no evidence for [fill in the blank

IF evidence is defined as scientific evidence, meaning "below the mind" THEN it will be problematic to find scientific evidence for matters "above the mind"...God etc

Even more so, because God is "beyond words"

 

[Audie]

The Book of Mormon says there will be few members compared to the earth's population.

So if it isn't scientific it may be wrong.
But if it is scientific the above statement means that scientists will either mess up evaluating it or be dishonest.

But I believe it is scientific simply because the things I've seen I can't deny.

So for you to be right scientists have to all
be incompetant and / or dishonest.
What are the odds.

 

[robocop (actually)]

So for you to be right scientists have to all
be incompetant and / or dishonest.
What are the odds.

It's complicated. And I know saying it's complicated sounds like I'm giving up on it, but it's complicated.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

False. Mormonism tears families apart, creates anxiety, and fosters abuse. What you see is the superficial veneer hiding the rot underneath.

They also have never disavowed their racist "revelations" and still dance around the issue. Despicable. It's still an extremely "white" religion in the US.

 

[Audie]

It's complicated. And I know saying it's complicated sounds like I'm giving up on it, but it's complicated.

No, it isnt.

 

[robocop (actually)]

No, it isnt.

The trick is to come up with things that were known in ancient America, not known in Joseph Smith's day, and known about now.

We have evidencecentral.org and bookofmormoncentral.org ,

but like I said the book itself prophecies there will be few members in number, making it impossible for scientists to have a generally favorable consensus to it.

 

[Audie]

The trick is to come up with things that were known in ancient America, not known in Joseph Smith's day, and known about now.

We have evidencecentral.org and bookofmormoncentral.org ,

but like I said the book itself prophecies there will be few members in number, making it impossible for scientists to have a generally favorable consensus to it.

IOW
Mormon apologists are honest about
their faith but a meaningless
prediction causes all researchers
to abandon the deepest value of their
profession.

 

[robocop (actually)]

It's OK Audie. I respect you.

IOW, when they hear the book has angels in it they don't give it a fair shake.

IOW, because it says the believers will be few, it's not meant for scientists to conclude it's true.

But let me say that I believe it helps a man get closer to God than any other book.

 

[robocop (actually)]

FWIW, BYU is a very good University and there are many great scientists who are LDS.

(but if you really want good scientists and everything else, look at Jews).

 

[Watchmen]

Angels or not, the Book of Mormon is demonstrably false.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Angels or not, the Book of Mormon is demonstrably false.

I've heard it's never been refuted.
I've also read, "In the Book of Mormon there are “300 references to
chronology and 700 to geography with virtually perfect self-consistency.”