The bringing of iniquity to those who hate God

[JamieJ1989]

Exodus [20.5-6] 5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The reality of how many nations live, seems to completely contradict the verses. Why does God seem to portray in reality that the opposite is the case? The more you pray and worship, the more injustice God brings upon you. This is clearly shown in the scale of poverty of devoutly religious countries or regions. See figure.

It seems to me the less you pray and worship, the better your education, healthcare, longevity of life, prosperity, the less victimised you are by crime, sexual harassment/prohibition, etc.

I can only conclude that God purports to hate those who love him and love those who hate him. How can the graph in the figure above be reconciled with the verses given?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Exodus [20.5-6] 5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The reality of how many nations live, seems to completely contradict the verses. Why does God seem to portray in reality that the opposite is the case? The more you pray and worship, the more injustice God brings upon you. This is clearly shown in the scale of poverty of devoutly religious countries or regions. See figure.

It seems to me the less you pray and worship, the better your education, healthcare, longevity of life, prosperity, the less victimised you are by crime, sexual harassment/prohibition, etc.

I can only conclude that God purports to hate those who love him and love those who hate him. How can the graph in the figure above be reconciled with the verses given?

Obviously, the graph represents God visiting inequity on people who worship the wrong gods, or who follow heretical perversions of the One True Faith.

Followers of the One True Faith are such a small number that they get lost in the noise - as Christ said, narrow is the Way and only few will find it.

 

[Tumah]

This is not a very good question because it assumes that all theistic worshipers are one lump group serving the same god.

 

[JamieJ1989]

Obviously, the graph represents God visiting inequity on people who worship the wrong gods, or who follow heretical perversions of the One True Faith.

Followers of the One True Faith are such a small number that they get lost in the noise - as Christ said, narrow is the Way and only few will find it.

So it's ok to completely disbelieve, not worship at all, blasphmey, adultery, do all the things that tend to go against the teachings of many religions, as many atheists or agnostics etc tend to do. And God will award you for it with prosperity? From what you're saying you would expect the countries more associated with a lack of any faith, to be at the lower end of the horizontal axis. This isn't what is seen.

 

[JamieJ1989]

This is not a very good question because it assumes that all theistic worshipers are one lump group serving the same god.

You'd expect to see a single outlier or a couple if there were nations with higher percentages of those worshipping the correct God. And the rest slumped at the bottom end of the horizontal axis.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You'd expect to see a single outlier or a couple if there were nations with higher percentages of those worshipping the correct God. And the rest slumped at the bottom end of the horizontal axis.

Not necessarily. Depends how big the One True Faith is. Also, if the false believers around the One True Faith persecute the True Believers, then it stands to reason that God would especially punish the persecutors, thereby bringing down the overall average of the countries where True Believers happen to be.

And in any case, you do have a single outlier: the US.

Edit: we would also expect that God would punish those who hate him or who worship other gods more than those who are ambivalent to gods and don't worship anything. This seems to be the general trend of the graph (no matter which religion or denomination we assume is "right").

 

[Tumah]

You'd expect to see a single outlier or a couple if there were nations with higher percentages of those worshipping the correct God. And the rest slumped at the bottom end of the horizontal axis.

Assuming there was a country where the vast majority were doing so.

 

[JamieJ1989]

Not necessarily. Depends how big the One True Faith is. Also, if the false believers around the One True Faith persecute the True Believers, then it stands to reason that God would especially punish the persecutors, thereby bringing down the overall average of the countries where True Believers happen to be.

And in any case, you do have a single outlier: the US.

Edit: we would also expect that God would punish those who hate him or who worship other gods more than those who are ambivalent to gods and don't worship anything. This seems to be the general trend of the graph (no matter which religion or denomination we assume is "right").

If this were the case, you'd expect the persecutors to quickly start behaving as the true believers do, seeing as they'd be witnessing the true believers prosper.

The US isn't an outlier, when you view it with respect to the individual states it falls in line with the normal trend.

I don't see how you've come to your last conclusion?

 

[Quintessence]

It seems to me the less you pray and worship, the better your education, healthcare, longevity of life, prosperity, the less victimised you are by crime, sexual harassment/prohibition, etc.

None of this has been demonstrated by the data you have presented. Which is lacking a citation, by the way. It would be a good idea to cite where you stole this graph from.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If this were the case, you'd expect the persecutors to quickly start behaving as the true believers do, seeing as they'd be witnessing the true believers prosper.

Unless God has hardened their hearts or they've been deceived by Satan or the like.

They may also be "incorrectly" attributing their suffering to something other than God.

The US isn't an outlier, when you view it with respect to the individual states it falls in line with the normal trend.

View attachment 14440

I don't think that the American trendline follows the world trendline from your last graph.

I don't see how you've come to your last conclusion?

Take any particular religious group; in any given country, most of the religious people probably won't belong to that group. This means that, for most people, the people who consider religion "very important" are going to be predominantly heretics.

 

[JamieJ1989]

None of this has been demonstrated by the data you have presented. Which is lacking a citation, by the way. It would be a good idea to cite where you stole this graph from.

It clearly has. The more religious you are the more you worship. It would take you maybe 30 minutes to put that graph together with the data found here,

The importance of religion by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

and, list of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

If thats not ok, then there is a huge amount of academic research on the subject here is where I 'stole' the graph from,
http://www.atheistapologist.com/2010/07/are-atheists-smarter-than-religious.html
That being said the graph does look somewhat outdated. I might do the hard work and update it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So it's ok to completely disbelieve, not worship at all, blasphmey, adultery, do all the things that tend to go against the teachings of many religions, as many atheists or agnostics etc tend to do. And God will award you for it with prosperity?

I didn't say that. Maybe God will punish non-believers, but punish false worshippers more. Maybe non-believers would be as rich as Croesus if they believed "correctly", and their current GDP reflects a punishment... just not as much punishment as the "false" worshippers get.

You were the one that gave the verse condemning false believers specifically.

As for adultery, you haven't presented any information at all about that. If you're assuming adultery rates, you're going to need to provide something to back up your assumptions.

From what you're saying you would expect the countries more associated with a lack of any faith, to be at the lower end of the horizontal axis. This isn't what is seen.

I don't think that follows. I'm going by the passage you cited in your OP: it condemned "bowing down or serving" other gods; it didn't say anything about God's attitude to non-belief.

 

[Jainarayan]

You'd expect to see a single outlier or a couple if there were nations with higher percentages of those worshipping the correct God. And the rest slumped at the bottom end of the horizontal axis.

Which is the correct God, and why is he (or she) the correct God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

...
The more you pray and worship, the more injustice God brings upon you. This is clearly shown in the scale of poverty of devoutly religious countries or regions. See figure.

It seems to me the less you pray and worship, the better your education, healthcare, longevity of life, prosperity, the less victimised you are by crime, sexual harassment/prohibition, etc.
...

Yes .. interesting, isn't it?
But your conclusions are in error..
The first thing to note is that the vast majority of people who "make it to heaven/paradise" will be poor people. This fits in with your observations that people in poor countries tend to be more pious.
The second thing is that the rich countries are "being given rope to hang themselves" .. I don't mean that Almighty God wishes evil for them as such, but wealth is just as much a difficult test as is poverty .. if not more so.

Almighty God gives provision to ALL of His creation .. all creatures great and small, believers and disbelievers .. and the sequel is for the humble believers, have no doubt about that

 

[idav]

Exodus [20.5-6] 5: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6: And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

The reality of how many nations live, seems to completely contradict the verses. Why does God seem to portray in reality that the opposite is the case? The more you pray and worship, the more injustice God brings upon you. This is clearly shown in the scale of poverty of devoutly religious countries or regions. See figure.

It seems to me the less you pray and worship, the better your education, healthcare, longevity of life, prosperity, the less victimised you are by crime, sexual harassment/prohibition, etc.

I can only conclude that God purports to hate those who love him and love those who hate him. How can the graph in the figure above be reconciled with the verses given?

So basically God does bless America with wealth since we are religious, but not other countries. Good for the US, maybe its more a sign that the U.S. has sold there souls to Mammon. Really could go either way depending on whether you want to hate america or not.

 

[JamieJ1989]

So basically God does bless America with wealth since we are religious, but not other countries. Good for the US, maybe its more a sign that the U.S. has sold there souls to Mammon. Really could go either way depending on whether you want to hate america or not.

I have updated the graph, the US has been included as individual states and falls inline with the trend.

I think it's obvious the reason for the trend in the graph, the more you worship and spend your time devoted to religious activities the less time you have to work and acquire luxuries. You also have less time to educate yourself and to be educated, so your prospects become limited.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes its does sound stupid doesn't it.

 

[JamieJ1989]

Yes .. interesting, isn't it?
But your conclusions are in error..
The first thing to note is that the vast majority of people who "make it to heaven/paradise" will be poor people. This fits in with your observations that people in poor countries tend to be more pious.
The second thing is that the rich countries are "being given rope to hang themselves" .. I don't mean that Almighty God wishes evil for them as such, but wealth is just as much a difficult test as is poverty .. if not more so.

Almighty God gives provision to ALL of His creation .. all creatures great and small, believers and disbelievers .. and the sequel is for the humble believers, have no doubt about that

Why would God create us and want to keep us poor? So you're born without a say in the matter, given a conscious, and have to live poor and spend your days worshipping him in order to increase your chances of going to heaven?

It's far easier and more comfortable to live with wealth than to live with poor, so i'm not sure how you're equating the two?

 

[idav]

I have updated the graph, the US has been included as individual states and falls inline with the trend.

View attachment 14449

I think it's obvious the reason for the trend in the graph, the more you worship and spend your time devoted to religious activities the less time you have to work and acquire luxuries. You also have less time to educate yourself and to be educated, so your prospects become limited.

Thats interesting, must be the disproportion we have with the one percent having 90% of the wealth.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why would God create us and want to keep us poor?

I did not say that God wants to keep us poor .. I said that the majority of people in heaven/paradise will be the poor .. it's not the same thing
The reason for people being rich and poor is not simply a matter that some people are smarter or harder working .. mankind tends to oppress one another and are often violent in their love of wealth.
To please Almighty God, we need to abstain from lying, cheating and greed .. this often causes them to be poorer than others

It's far easier and more comfortable to live with wealth than to live with poor, so i'm not sure how you're equating the two?

Yes, it is .. but how do you know how long the present-day rich countries will keep their privileges?