The Brutal Math Of Poverty

[Enoch07]

Well, i make less then 15,000 a year, if that is any indication of my poorness. Saving money will get you the things you want though. Plus, i have roommates, so i don't have to pay all the bills. That makes things easier. So, honestly, while i am in fact below the poverty line, i have help, so it is manageable.

Wow I never can understand how anyone can live on that amount of money. Kudos to you. My mom did it when I was child, though I cannot fathom how she did it. Single mom raising 2 kids. She made $150 per week at a shoe factory, and $80 a week from child support. Of course $100 a week went to day care, until I was old enough to take care of my brother, but we always had a roof over our heads, food on the table, and we was happy which is all that matters to me even to this day.

 

[3.14]

just curious what do you do and how long have you worked there?

 

[rageoftyrael]

Me? Well, right now i'm a manager at McD's. Been there for two years, just about. Yeah, i know, my pay sucks.

 

[3.14]

ye just a dollar more then a normal employe an hour ( i assume you had a manager education to become manager in just 2 years)

if you have manager's education you can get in about a 20.000 pay scale

ps
well you save alot of money on drinks (used to work in a mc aswell)

 

[rageoftyrael]

actually, i have no management training, i got offered management two weeks in to be a manager, for two reasons. One, cause i am an awesome worker, who would work any hours. Two, cause they were desperate for managers. One plus two equals me becoming a manager, lol.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Why you have to be rich to be poor.

Certainly, if you're poor, you have to live frugally, and avoid waste, but that's part of living according to your means. You can't be poor and expect to live like people who have more money.

Growing up, my parents' annual income was never higher than the poverty line, and most years, probably well below it. So we were poor, but my parents lived extremely frugally, and there was never any waste. It was certainly no picnic growing up, but we always had a roof, paid utilities, and food - often we seemed to be in better shape than people who made twice as much as my parents.

I'm fortunate that, starting from where I did, I now make a well-above-average salary, and my wife makes even more, but, although I live much more liberally than my parents, I still am far more frugal, and waste far less, than people who make around what I do. I have money saved, can buy nice things, go on nice vacations, go out/eat out whenever we want, and never worry about paying any bills - yet, I know people in similar or better shape than us salary-wise, who are constantly on the verge of being broke.

No matter what you make, it's all about living smartly. Money not spent/wasted, is the same as money earned.

 

[Magic Man]

I have money saved, can buy nice things, go on nice vacations, go out/eat out whenever we want, and never worry about paying any bills - yet, I know people in similar or better shape than us salary-wise, who are constantly on the verge of being broke.

This is an interesting comment. The only reason those other people are constantly on the verge of being broke would have to be precisely because they do those things you say you can do. The only explanation for them ending up with less money than you is that they buy those nice things, go on those nice vacations and go out whenever they want, or else they'd end up with the same amount as you have.

So, I'm curious how you can do those things and not end up on the verge of being broke while they can't. Maybe I'm just misreading this, but it seems contradictory.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

This is an interesting comment. The only reason those other people are constantly on the verge of being broke would have to be precisely because they do those things you say you can do.

Actually, they do those things less than I do. They spend their money so inefficiently on other things, that they do not have extra left.

So, I'm curious how you can do those things and not end up on the verge of being broke while they can't. Maybe I'm just misreading this, but it seems contradictory.

Don't worry - most people are confused by this, which is exactly why they end up being broke on a good salary.

1) I drive a fuel-efficient car that's paid for. I don't lease a car - or buy a new car every few years. Additionally, I drive a $13k automobile, even though most people I know who make what I do, or even less, drive much more expensive automobiles. Also, when I bought my car, 1) I did it at the end of the model-year; 2) I contacted every dealership in the area which had 2005 Honda Civics in stock, got their best price, then had them compete. I ended up getting a brand-new car, out-of-the-door price, for $13,600. If I just walked in to a dealership and bought it, I'd have paid at least $3K more.

2) I always haggle on big ticket items (anything over $300). A lot of people don't do this, or even realize that you can. We watch a lot of movies, so I bought a projector a couple of years ago. I got a floor model, and bs'ed with and haggled with the salesman for 45 minutes or so. He had so much time invested with me, he was more motivated to lower the price. I ended up getting almost 30% off the projector, plus a $100 mail-in rebate.

3) I research everything I buy, to make sure I'm getting the most for my money. Always.

4) I make extra portions at dinner to bring to work for lunch. Many people go out everyday and spend $6-$10 on lunch everyday.

5) I'm just generally not wasteful, with food, household products, etc. I see how people live, and how much unused stuff they throw out on a regular basis. That's money down the drain.

6) I don't own a house beyond my means. I live in Northern Virgina, where nearly everybody has a house which is way beyond what they can afford.

Just these things have saved me probably tens of thousands of dollars over the years - money I then could put into savings, or go on a trip, etc.

 

[Magic Man]

Actually, they do those things less than I do. They spend their money so inefficiently on other things, that they do not have extra left.

But wouldn't those other things go into the category of "buying nice things"? What I'm getting at is that you can't just spend money on nice things whenever you want because that's what gets those others in trouble, and as you outline below, you have to be very cheap even about those nice things you do buy.

Don't worry - most people are confused by this, which is exactly why they end up being broke on a good salary.

1) I drive a fuel-efficient car that's paid for. I don't lease a car - or buy a new car every few years. Additionally, I drive a $13k automobile, even though most people I know who make what I do, or even less, drive much more expensive automobiles. Also, when I bought my car, 1) I did it at the end of the model-year; 2) I contacted every dealership in the area which had 2005 Honda Civics in stock, got their best price, then had them compete. I ended up getting a brand-new car, out-of-the-door price, for $13,600. If I just walked in to a dealership and bought it, I'd have paid at least $3K more.

2) I always haggle on big ticket items (anything over $300). A lot of people don't do this, or even realize that you can. We watch a lot of movies, so I bought a projector a couple of years ago. I got a floor model, and bs'ed with and haggled with the salesman for 45 minutes or so. He had so much time invested with me, he was more motivated to lower the price. I ended up getting almost 30% off the projector, plus a $100 mail-in rebate.

3) I research everything I buy, to make sure I'm getting the most for my money. Always.

4) I make extra portions at dinner to bring to work for lunch. Many people go out everyday and spend $6-$10 on lunch everyday.

5) I'm just generally not wasteful, with food, household products, etc. I see how people live, and how much unused stuff they throw out on a regular basis. That's money down the drain.

6) I don't own a house beyond my means. I live in Northern Virgina, where nearly everybody has a house which is way beyond what they can afford.

Just these things have saved me probably tens of thousands of dollars over the years - money I then could put into savings, or go on a trip, etc.

OK, what I'm saying is originally you said you can buy nice things, go on nice vacations, etc. You made it sound like you can live the life they live, but cheaper, which is not quite the case. That's where I was getting confused.

I'm sure you're much more efficient with your money, but being more efficient means precisely not eating out very much and not buying many nice things. I understand all of what you say here, especially the house part (which, of course, has been a bigger problem in the past few years). I'm just saying that the list of things you could do while being more efficient was phrased a little weird.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

But wouldn't those other things go into the category of "buying nice things"? What I'm getting at is that you can't just spend money on nice things whenever you want because that's what gets those others in trouble, and as you outline below, you have to be very cheap even about those nice things you do buy.

Other than having a "cheap" car, and not living in a mansion I can not afford, I generally have nicer things than the people I'm talking about. For me, a car is transportation though, not a status symbol. For some, having a $800 a month car payment might be worth it to them.

OK, what I'm saying is originally you said you can buy nice things, go on nice vacations, etc. You made it sound like you can live the life they live, but cheaper, which is not quite the case. That's where I was getting confused.

Actually, it is - I do live the life they do, but cheaper, because I spend less on the same things, and don't throw money away needlessly - money which I can then spend on vacations and nice things.

I'm sure you're much more efficient with your money, but being more efficient means precisely not eating out very much and not buying many nice things. I understand all of what you say here, especially the house part (which, of course, has been a bigger problem in the past few years). I'm just saying that the list of things you could do while being more efficient was phrased a little weird.

No, I don't mean being more efficient by not buying things, but by getting the most out of the money I spend and eliminating waste. I don't mean "tight", I mean "efficient".

I don't think you're getting the core of what I'm saying. It's about getting the most for what you spend.

 

[rageoftyrael]

i think he understands, he just disagrees, and is arguing, lol.

 

[Magic Man]

Other than having a "cheap" car, and not living in a mansion I can not afford, I generally have nicer things than the people I'm talking about. For me, a car is transportation though, not a status symbol. For some, having a $800 a month car payment might be worth it to them.

Well, I would consider a nice house and a nice car "nice things". I agree on the car. I drive a 98 Mazda that I bought 5 years ago for $3,000.

Actually, it is - I do live the life they do, but cheaper, because I spend less on the same things, and don't throw money away needlessly - money which I can then spend on vacations and nice things.

Well, not the same life. You don't have a house or car as nice as theirs. Those are two very big things. Of course, I'm not saying you're worse off than them, because I agree that having a modest house and car but other things you want is the way to go.

I don't think you're getting the core of what I'm saying. It's about getting the most for what you spend.

No, I get it. That's why I said I think it was just worded weird. Basically, you're saying you can afford most of the things they have because you take the time to get better deals on them, and you save a lot by going cheaper on the big purchases like a house and car. It just didn't come off that way with the original wording is all. And part of it is not buying things sometimes. A lot of the people in the group you're talking about feel the need to get the $500 grill and the 60-inch flat-screen HD TV, and the $1,500 lawn mower, along with many gadgets that no one really needs. Part of being efficient is not buying some of those things, or in the case of, say, the lawnmower, not buying the ridiculously expensive one.

 

[rojse]

actually, i have no management training, i got offered management two weeks in to be a manager, for two reasons. One, cause i am an awesome worker, who would work any hours. Two, cause they were desperate for managers. One plus two equals me becoming a manager, lol.

Surely with two years experience as a manager you would be able to use that experience to get a job somewhere else that would appreciate you more than Big M does.

 

[J Bryson]

The fact is that no matter how much you try to save, there will always be extra expenditures in time and money due to the unscrupulous business practices of poverty pimps. I agree that it's good to be thrifty, but it's also necessary for people to stand up against this sort of economic exploitation.

 

[rageoftyrael]

It's possible. I'm looking into it.

 

[Ciscokid]

Yeah, being poor sucks. You get used to it though, and just try to improve yourself. My big goal in life is not to be rich, nah, that's greedy. I just want to be comfortable.

That's probably part of the problem.

 

[rageoftyrael]

well, ur probably right, but i'd rather get used to it, and try to change, than not get used to it, and constantly be annoyed, or whatever....

 

[Dunemeister]

The point that seems to be getting missed in this discussion of personal experiences (valid in its own right, of course) is how this article points out the systematic oppression of the poor right here in the good 'ol USA, whose national myth tells us that if we bootstrap ourselves and work real hard, we can make it. Well, we can't. If ever a person hits the poverty line, they're sunk. The only way out isn't hard work. As the article points out, they work very hard.

I'd be interested to hear what you think ought to be done about this. Clearly letting the situation go unremedied would be crassly immoral.

 

[Alceste]

Hi, Stranger,

Speaking from experience, the concept of how much you save, how thrifty and clever you are with your wages, and how you haggle for deals on luxury items is totally irrelevant to the topic of survival below the poverty line. None of these issues are on the radar at all for the poor. When I was on welfare, for example, one month's check paid for my rent and electricity and three weeks worth of food (not a month) assuming I ate nothing but plain rice, or spaghetti noodles in garlic and butter on a fancy occasion. When the cash ran out before the end of the month, as it always did, I ate nothing. I hope that's clear enough. There was no "saving money", and no opportunity to be frugal with my purchases because there were no purchases, apart from food. A "holiday" was an afternoon loitering in the city park.

Now, I'm not complaining, I chose to try to live on welfare because I wanted to write a book and my savings ran out before I finished it. And I wouldn't trade it in, because being able to sit and write stories full-time was one of the most satisfying experiences of my life thus far. But, eventually my glasses broke. There is no way to replace something like that on welfare unless you want to spend a whole month with no food or electricity, possibly sleeping in a box, so the honeymoon ended and I got a job.

When I'm working I'm fortunate in that I can usually score a job that pays about double the minimum wage, and so allows me the flexibility to buy things, save money and go on holidays, just like you. After being on welfare, though, it STILL took me a year to be able to replace my glasses, because things tend to back up when you're on welfare - you end up with only one outfit and holes in your shoes, a few months behind on the bills, not to mention repaying friends who didn't like the idea of you going without food for a week out of every month and so offered some assistance. Not to mention suddenly being able to afford to be the person who helps out your friends who are still on welfare.

AND this is in Canada, where we're supposed to be socialists compared to the US. God only knows what it's like to be on welfare down there. From what I understand it's hell, that's if you can get on it to begin with.

Anyway, I'm thinking that when you say "poor", you mean "as poor as I, never having been poor, can imagine anybody else being". That is to say, I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Ciscokid]

The point that seems to be getting missed in this discussion of personal experiences (valid in its own right, of course) is how this article points out the systematic oppression of the poor right here in the good 'ol USA, whose national myth tells us that if we bootstrap ourselves and work real hard, we can make it. Well, we can't. If ever a person hits the poverty line, they're sunk. The only way out isn't hard work. As the article points out, they work very hard.

I'd be interested to hear what you think ought to be done about this. Clearly letting the situation go unremedied would be crassly immoral.

If you tell yourself you are going to fail, you probably will. If you tell yourself, "I have this obstacle ahead of me but it's no use, I can't make it" then welcome to failure.

Do you really think those who have been very poor have always stayed that way no matter what they did? There are immigrants who have made it in this country, talk about having the odds against you.