The caliphate between conspiracy and prophecy

[FearGod]

If i remember that hadith is about khawarij. It says how long their hair is, how they use cities as nicknames, how they behave with people.


Hazrat Muhammad (may peace and blessings be upon him) If you see the black flags, then remain on the ground and do not move a hand or a leg. A group of weaklings will then appear their hearts are like iron. They are the owners of the state (dawla). They fulfill neither a contract nor a covenant. They call to the truth, but they are not its people. Their names are a kuniya (i.e Abu so – and-so) and their lineage (surnames) are a town. Their hair is unwinding, like the hair of a women. (Do this) untill they differ in it between themselves, then Allah will give the right to whomever HE desires.
Reference : Kitaab Al Fitan: Nu’am bin Hammad, p157, Hadith # 557


Some say this is false hadith, not mentioned in any book.

Thats why i said only time may reveal the truth.

 

[FearGod]

Personally, I don't think it even qualifies as coincidence.

Many people project a lot of hope into the concept of the Caliphate and dearly want to see it materialize.

That is as far as it goes IMO. It is just wishful thinking.

If it isn't a conspiracy then who support these people since the surrounding Muslim world refuse them, so rationally speaking the support should be coming from outside the Muslim region.

 

[LuisDantas]

If it isn't a conspiracy then who support these people since the surrounding Muslim world refuse them, so rationally speaking the support should be coming from outside the Muslim region.

I have seen people long for a Caliphate here in this forum. Are you telling me that it would be strange for a Muslim to have such a longing?

 

[Augustus]

If it isn't a conspiracy then who support these people since the surrounding Muslim world refuse them, so rationally speaking the support should be coming from outside the Muslim region.

They have had plenty of support from the surrounding Muslim world, they have existed for maybe 15 years in one form or the other. Over time they built up the ability to be self-supporting, extortion, smuggling, kidnapping, etc.

Would imagine they still get help from individuals, even if not governments anymore.

 

[FearGod]

I have seen people long for a Caliphate here in this forum. Are you telling me that it would be strange for a Muslim to have such a longing?

What i can see that Muslims are against the ISIS ? the question that raises then is "who support them from abroad"

 

[FearGod]

They have had plenty of support from the surrounding Muslim world, they have existed for maybe 15 years in one form or the other. Over time they built up the ability to be self-supporting, extortion, smuggling, kidnapping, etc.

Would imagine they still get help from individuals, even if not governments anymore.

Individuals won't be able to do any help because Muslim governments are aware and won't let any support to come to them through any individuals and how they got weapons if not from abroad, how can weapons enter without government knowledge.

Coups do happen by military and not by civilians.

 

[LuisDantas]

What i can see that Muslims are against the ISIS ? the question that raises then is "who support them from abroad"

Oh, you mean ISIS specifically?

I understand that much, perhaps the core even of ISIS are Baathists who used to support Sadam Hussein and lost grace after the USA invaded Iraq. I assume lots of people from the region who feel slighted, unfairly treated or perhaps simply well-placed for hopefully attaining some lands and prestige joined them as well.

As for foreign adherents and foreign support, I truly don't know. I assume some people are simply tired of all this play of shadows and decided to take a stand, even if it basically suicidal. But that is just my guess. I don't claim to understand what leads foreign people to support ISIS.

 

[FearGod]

Oh, you mean ISIS specifically?

I understand that much, perhaps the core even of ISIS are Baathists who used to support Sadam Hussein and lost grace after the USA invaded Iraq. I assume lots of people from the region who feel slighted, unfairly treated or perhaps simply well-placed for hopefully attaining some lands and prestige joined them as well.

As for foreign adherents and foreign support, I truly don't know. I assume some people are simply tired of all this play of shadows and decided to take a stand, even if it basically suicidal. But that is just my guess. I don't claim to understand what leads foreign people to support ISIS.

Baathists lost position in Iraq due to foreign interfere,IOW world unity were needed to end the Baath regime, but who support the Baath or the ISIS in the Muslim region, none.

 

[Augustus]

Individuals won't be able to do any help because Muslim governments are aware and won't let any support to come to them through any individuals and how they got weapons if not from abroad, how can weapons enter without government knowledge.

Coups do happen by military and not by civilians.

They don't need any help from Muslim governments any more. They don't need help from anyone to continue. They have weapons, money and fighters already. That is all you need.

In the past many people have helped them to obtain money, weapons and fighters. They have many soldiers highly experienced in insurgency from Iraq, Chechnya, etc. which makes them a capable fighting force. They have plenty of heavy weaponry that they captured.

They became powerful through a combination of skill, strategy, the right circumstances (luck), extreme brutality and the weakness of their enemy.

The West did not create ISIS, they created the conditions that made it possible for them to become powerful with stupid wars and massive incompetence, Syria allowed ISIS more access to money, weapons and fighters. And the rest is history.

They probably won't last too long, a few years maybe.

 

[Nietzsche]

Augustus, I just want to say how much I appreciate having someone else who understands pre-modern state concepts and using things like "facts" and "figures" and "history" to show those that they are wrong.

 

[FearGod]

They don't need any help from Muslim governments any more. They don't need help from anyone to continue. They have weapons, money and fighters already. That is all you need.

In the past many people have helped them to obtain money, weapons and fighters. They have many soldiers highly experienced in insurgency from Iraq, Chechnya, etc. which makes them a capable fighting force. They have plenty of heavy weaponry that they captured.

They became powerful through a combination of skill, strategy, the right circumstances (luck), extreme brutality and the weakness of their enemy.

The West did not create ISIS, they created the conditions that made it possible for them to become powerful with stupid wars and massive incompetence, Syria allowed ISIS more access to money, weapons and fighters. And the rest is history.

They probably won't last too long, a few years maybe.

I wonder how they were able to beat Sadam and his army while not able to control few fighters threatening the west for a long war.

 

[Augustus]

I wonder how they were able to beat Sadam and his army while not able to control few fighters threatening the west for a long war.

They had an army to defeat Saddam which makes quite a big difference...

Anyway, as you saw in Iraq, Afghanistan or Vietnam, it is much harder to defeat an insurgency than a regular army. They had to pretty much destroy Fallujah to clear it of insurgents and then they just came back anyway after America pulled out.

Hopefully they have realised that invading countries, as well as being immoral and illegal, is also counterproductive to their purpose.