The Caste System

[Kalidas]

I think what has to be remembered in a discussion about castes and genetics is that castes are basically jobs. The Potter caste, the Warrior caste, the Farmer's Caste etc. We're talking about a series of skills. Almost any skill can be taught to any person as long as they are able bodied and mentally "sound". Some may excell over others, but truly, anyone can learn anything, given a proper teacher, time and dedication. Genetics do not determine the skills we can learn and at best only marginally influence the degree to which we excel at them. But as some point, the degree to which you improve ceases to matter. An average blacksmith and an excellent blacksmith probably both know how to shoe a horse. Does the average blacksmith have to resign himself to a different vocation simply because he is not the best? Simply because it's "not in his genes"?

I can see the validity in Aup's point about how certain important and highly skilled vocations are strengthed by the ability to guarantee they get passed on from one generation to the next. Still, if I were a teacher I wouldn't want to waste my time teaching my child a skill who didn't care about the trade. I'd rather get a passionate apprentice who was willing to put in the work. People who are passionate AND skilled do the best work.

:camp:

I am going to respectfully disagree but we can disagree that's fine.Sure anyone can learn anything they are able bodied to do. But I don't think without that internal drive ingrained in them at birth they will be unwilling to learn. A popular saying among teachers is "I can teach you, I can't learn you." As I said you don't have to agree with me, I can and have been wrong many times.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does the average blacksmith have to resign himself to a different vocation simply because he is not the best? Simply because it's "not in his genes"?

I'd rather get a passionate apprentice who was willing to put in the work. People who are passionate AND skilled do the best work.

:camp:

Given the long period of apprenticeship between a father and a son, there was a chance to learn many things. And even after the father retired, he was at the back of the shop to give advice when needed. It was not because of any other thing that we could make an iron pillar before Jesus' time which has not rusted even now.

In India, a passionate apprentice was taken up by an artisan like a son, and many a times married his daughter (Like the Sitar maestro Ravi Shankar marrying the daughter of his teacher, Ustad Allauddin Khan).

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

In India, a passionate apprentice was taken up by an artisan like a son, and many a times married his daughter.

Works for me

 

[Vinayaka]

Given the long period of apprenticeship between a father and a son, there was a chance to learn many things. And even after the father retired, he was at the back of the shop to give advice when needed. It was not because of any other thing that we could make an iron pillar before Jesus' time which has not rusted even now.

In India, a passionate apprentice was taken up by an artisan like a son, and many a times married his daughter (Like the Sitar maestro Ravi Shankar marrying the daughter of his teacher, Ustad Allauddin Khan).

Over here some 60 years ago, probably 70 % of people did what their parents did before them. Sons of farmers certainly became farmers. That was the way it was. Now ... well, things have changed.

 

[Kalidas]

Over here some 60 years ago, probably 70 % of people did what their parents did before them. Sons of farmers certainly became farmers. That was the way it was. Now ... well, things have changed.

You would be surprised most children end up doing one of two things. They either become EXACTLY like their parents , OR they go the exact opposite direction.

Well I am going to make an attempt to adjust the topic of this thread away from my crazy theory(maybe I am just insane) and to something HF said earlier. America... do they have a form of a caste system? I would say despite the many who would disagree I think I agree with what she said. Its not a strict out in the open legal caste system but a social one. I think it is human nature to want to compartmentalize everything, each other included.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Not just America - everywhere in the world practices some kind of social hierarchy. The degree to which people experience injustice because of it varies though.

If we define a caste system as one that separates people into categories and limits them to certain activities based on those categories, then yes, there most definitely is a caste system in the US.

I think it's easy to point fingers at someone else and say, "That, right there, is the problem." But we are only holding up a mirror. We need to realize that and fix ourselves before being so quick to demonize other systems.

:camp:

 

[Maya3]

Well from what I have come to learn in my Human and Child Development college courses is that as FH said genes and enviornment esse.tially make up who we are (or who we have a propencity to become). Genes given by your parents or overtime(epigenetic theory) Then your environment (or lack of) happens and your genes decide how you should act. This is just basic evolution. Now yes you are both very correct in thinking that people can (and always do) move beyond their genetic coding to work beyond and that our genes do not dictate we are garenteed to only be what they say we are(some would say this is just more genes, but I don't). I feel this exactly where the soul has the most control, which is where my idea(its really just me mixing modern science with belief) of a "biological" caste, dictated by karma
I know that the ancient scripts say nothing of genetics and biology being the cause of the caste system Aup. But why do you think Arjuna made a good warrior and not a sage? Yes of course his up brining , but honestly without his biology making it easy to build muscle. mass and to be able to remember military tactics all the training in the world can not teach these things. The caste system makes sense in an evolutionary sense too. Keeping people in similar groups with similar jobs only allowing marriage of one another would lead to common genes being the "norm" in this sub group. Which would only solidify t,he belief tchat staying in ones "place" is the proper thing to do. I have to commend the ancit Indian societies,

I don´t have a lot of time to reply.
But genetically the more diverse your gene pool gets the better it is. Marrying in small groups such as Hasidic Jewish groups, small Amish groups or other very close knit communities that only marry within their own group is actually NOT good for your offspring.

Genetically you are supposed to spread your genes as far and wide as possible. One reason why bees pollinate for flowers, the bees fly far and wide to different flowers.

Maya

 

[Vinayaka]

I don´t have a lot of time to reply.
But genetically the more diverse your gene pool gets the better it is. Marrying in small groups such as Hasidic Jewish groups, small Amish groups or other very close knit communities that only marry within their own group is actually NOT good for your offspring.

Genetically you are supposed to spread your genes as far and wide as possible. One reason why bees pollinate for flowers, the bees fly far and wide to different flowers.

Maya

Here's an article on it. Why inbreeding really isn't as bad as you think it is The danger isn't as bad as the myth presents itself unless sustained over many generations. First cousin marriage is relatively common in India, and especially in tight-knit but smaller groups, such as Brahmin communities.

 

[Kalidas]

I don´t have a lot of time to reply.
But genetically the more diverse your gene pool gets the better it is. Marrying in small groups such as Hasidic Jewish groups, small Amish groups or other very close knit communities that only marry within their own group is actually NOT good for your offspring.

Genetically you are supposed to spread your genes as far and wide as possible. One reason why bees pollinate for flowers, the bees fly far and wide to different flowers.

Maya

The pros and and cons of breeding within close knits groups (which is what happened in the caste system remember no marrying out of caste) doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm sure the more people that continued to only marry people in their caste the more thodse genes that made the people in that caste good at what they did would continue to "pop up". That can't be denied.

 

[Maya3]

Here's an article on it. Why inbreeding really isn't as bad as you think it is The danger isn't as bad as the myth presents itself unless sustained over many generations. First cousin marriage is relatively common in India, and especially in tight-knit but smaller groups, such as Brahmin communities.

To be honest that does not look like a very reliable source. If you google a bit there are many more that speak about the importance of genetic diversity.

As for the danger the further along it is sustained that is definitely true, and that is exactly what happens in the long run even if the population is larger now, if you look at the future and picture far ahead it is better for us to be diverse and spread.
That is what we have done from the beginning. That is how we have evolved.

Maya

 

[bp789]

Here's an article on it. Why inbreeding really isn't as bad as you think it is The danger isn't as bad as the myth presents itself unless sustained over many generations. First cousin marriage is relatively common in India, and especially in tight-knit but smaller groups, such as Brahmin communities.

I wouldn't say it's that common in India. I know for North India, first cousin marriages are heavily looked down upon and viewed as incest. My parents are Gujarati and in Gujarat, marrying your first through seventh cousins is considered incestuous and unacceptable because many Indians live with or are close to their extended families, so marrying your cousin is viewed as marrying your brother or sister. The specifics vary in that you can't marry first through seventh cousins from your paternal line and first through fifth from your maternal line, but in general cousin marriages are heavily looked down upon in Gujarat, along with most of North India (well for Hindu North Indians anyway, I'm not sure about Muslim Indians). I know cousin marriages occur more frequently among South Indians (I know one girl who said her uncle married his cousin), but it's becoming more uncommon, and South India does not make up the entirety of India.

And I know that occasional cousin marriages don't cause any defects within the children (hell many children born of parent-child or sibling incest come out normal), but I still think it should be discouraged just because of the potential consequences that may occur of multiple generations of inbreeding. I know the British Pakistani community has a big problem with this because multiple generations of cousin marriages have caused so many children to be born with genetic defects. I read somewhere that the British Pakistani community creates 1/3 of all the children in the UK born with mental or genetic defects.

 

[Vinayaka]

I wouldn't say it's that common in India.

Then I stand corrected. As you might know, I am more familiar with the South. As for the genetic studies, just who is to believe, I suppose.

http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts

0r http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...th-lifethreatening-birth-defects-8686232.html

 

[Aupmanyav]

But genetically the more diverse your gene pool gets the better it is.

In India, a small genetic pool may mean some millions. Kashmiri brahmins are probably one of the smallest genetic pools, less than some 400,000. But we have started diversifying our pool in earnest. Look at the Nehru family, Hindu (Indira), Zoroastrian (Feroze Gandhi), Roman Catholic (Sonia Gandhi), Punjabi-Sikh (Sanjay's wife), Bengali (Varun Gandhi's wife).

 

[Aupmanyav]

First cousin marriage is relatively common in India, and especially in tight-knit but smaller groups, such as Brahmin communities.

That is among Muslims, among Hindus it is an absolute 'no, no', a sacrilege. However, in the matriarchial system in Kerala, a girl did marry the maternal uncle in olden days. The barrier is the 'Gotra system' (lineage). Marrying in your own 'gotra' or that of your mother was prohibited. Among 'Jats', three 'gotras' are to be avoided, otherwise - honor killing.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is among Muslims, among Hindus it is an absolute 'no, no', a sacrilege. However, in the matriarchial system in Kerala, a girl did marry the maternal uncle in olden days.

Depends where you live then, as I have a friend, originally from Madurai/Palani who married his first cousin. They also moved up in class (not sure which caste) by hard work. Father scrounged to get eldest son into law school. He's a lawyer in Madurai, and brother I know has his own engineering firm here. Very dynamic guy. I also know several Sri Lankans who married first cousins. but especially in the Brahmin community. So far the genetic factor hasn't stopped them from being doctors and engineers.

and another study ... http://www.ojhas.org/issue44/2012-4-7.html

 

[Kalidas]

Depends where you live then, as I have a friend, originally from Madurai/Palani who married his first cousin. They also moved up in class (not sure which caste) by hard work. Father scrounged to get eldest son into law school. He's a lawyer in Madurai, and brother I know has his own engineering firm here. Very dynamic guy. I also know several Sri Lankans who married first cousins. but especially in the Brahmin community. So far the genetic factor hasn't stopped them from being doctors and engineers.

and another study ... http://www.ojhas.org/issue44/2012-4-7.html

So caste is no longer dependent on birthright but by what you can do? HHmmm I don't think I have to many reservations to that.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Jat marriage ad:
http://www.jatshaadicentre.com/prof...results_id=F=763b075b96972a1793e7202d99e36a53
Female Height: 5'5''/28, based in Bareilly, India,
Looking for mate 27-32 yrs., Non-Manglik.
"Hindu-Jat, Hindi-Jat, Father Khuntal Mother Indola Gotra
Education: Doctorate, Science"

 

[Kalidas]

So I was thinking and I think maybe my orginal idea of applying the Caste system to the ever changing lives of our soul was misleading and didn't pottray my idea very well. I think better system would probably be thr ashram system or the stages of life. Maybe just as our bodies go through stages of life so too does our soul go through stages of progress as well.

Either way we can just keep this thread going if you all want to discuss the actual caste system

 

[Vinayaka]

So I was thinking and I think maybe my orginal idea of applying the Caste system to the ever changing lives of our soul was misleading and didn't pottray my idea very well. I think better system would probably be thr ashram system or the stages of life. Maybe just as our bodies go through stages of life so too does our soul go through stages of progress as well.

This is an accepted philosophical system. The stages of progress are charya, kriya, yoga and it culminates in jnana.

 

[Kalidas]

This is an accepted philosophical system. The stages of progress are charya, kriya, yoga and it culminates in jnana.

YAY its even scripturaly accepted! Lol. And the overall idea stays the same. Different stages require different bodies. So at one stage you may be better off being one type of person but another may be needes later.