The Challenge in the Qur'an

[YmirGF]

This thread is one I have been contemplating for some time and I am curious about this challenge on a number of levels. I will state flat out that I don’t consider it to be a realistic challenge, but will outline my case as things get going as to why that is. Fatihah has mentioned this challenge on several occasions now and I thought that rather than derail yet another thread with a side discussion that perhaps we could all chat about this challenge here in some depth. I would really like Muslims to participate and give their thoughts. For a change, I won’t just dump all over Islam at the first chance and will try to put my thinking into a cogent thoughtful manner. I would hope that others will try to do the same.

The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation), 2 - The Cow​

22. Who has made the earth your couch, and the heaven your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth).
23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
24. But if ye cannot, and of a surety ye cannot, then fear the fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith

The Qur'an (Pickthall translation), 2 - The Cow​

22 Who hath appointed the earth a resting-place for you, and the sky a canopy; and causeth water to pour down from the sky, thereby producing fruits as food for you. And do not set up rivals to Allah when ye know (better).
23 And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
24 And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation), Sura 4 - Women​

81. They have "Obedience" on their lips; but when they leave thee, a section of them meditate all night on things very different from what thou tellest them, but Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah; and enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
82. Do they not consider the Qur'án (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
83. When there comes to them some matter touching (public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.

The Qur'an (Pickthall translation), Sura 4 - Women​

81 And they say: (It is) obedience; but when they have gone forth from thee a party of them spend the night in planning other than what thou sayest. Allah recordeth what they plan by night. So oppose them and put thy trust in Allah. Allah is sufficient as Trustee.
82 Will they not then ponder on the Qur'án ? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.
83 And if any tidings, whether of safety or fear, come unto them, they noise it abroad, whereas if they had referred it to the messenger and to such of them as are in authority, those among them who are able to think out the matter would have known it. If it had not been for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy ye would have followed Satan, save a few (of you)

The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation), Sura 17 - The Israelites​

87. Except for Mercy from thy Lord: for His Bounty is to thee (indeed) great.
88. Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'án, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
89. And We have explained to man, in this Qur'án, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!

The Qur'an (Pickthall translation), Sura 17 - The Israelites​

87 (It is naught) save mercy from thy Lord. Lo! His kindness unto thee was ever great.
88 Say: Verily, though mankind and the jinn should assemble to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof though they were helpers one of another.
89 And verily We have displayed for mankind in this Qur’an all kind of similitude’s, but most of mankind refuse aught save disbelief.




The three passages above constitute the famous Challenge of the Qur’an; neatly laid out for any whom think they have the chutzpa to complete said challenge. On the face of it, it seems to be pretty straightforward; however, on closer examination all potential challengers must really stop and consider many details before taking this challenge.

My understanding is that what is not mentioned in this challenge is that all serious contenders must be written in Ancient Arabic. If you are not proficient in this form of Arabic you fail on that note alone. Due to the nature of the Qur’an this element is would seem to be critical.


TO ANY Arabic speaking Muslims:

Must the challenge be written in Ancient Arabic exactly as found in the original Qur’an?
Yes or no, please write a brief explanation as to why.

 

[Zephyr]

For a change, I won’t just dump all over Islam at the first chance and will try to put my thinking into a cogent thoughtful manner.

Man, you used to be cool .

That said, I don't speak Arabic (and didn't back when I was a Muslim) so I should probably duck out and just watch how this unfolds.

 

[Buttons*]

Man, you used to be cool .

That said, I don't speak Arabic (and didn't back when I was a Muslim) so I should probably duck out and just watch how this unfolds.

Hes still cool But yes, this is something we should both watch from afar

 

[kai]

a very interesting subject , i look forward to the discussion. i have often wondered about this challenge and have a few questions of my own, like what exactly are the rules of the game? , who is the judge? as we all know beauty is in the eye of the beholder why does it have to be in Arabic?, what is it about Arabic? surely its a personal opinion whether Arabic is the most beautiful written language what if i think Chinese is? or that French is most beautiful spoken language?.

This is an old argument forgive me for using it as i think its valid but "My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world. bring me another to equal her ,if not then everything she says is right!"

If this is indeed a challenge, (and the more i look into it the more i doubt it, i ) then give me the criteria i would have to meet to win it. but lets see how it goes.

 

[McBell]

Perhaps a link could be provided to the "official" challenge?

I am looking specifically for the exact conditions that must be met, who is to judge entries, etc.

Perhaps Fatihah could provide said link...
That way he cannot fall back on "THAT IS NOT THE RIGHT CHALLENGE"...

 

[JMorris]

he will do that, or some other cop-out, no matter the situation.

 

[Zephyr]

I think it will go a bit more like this.

"Response: That is not the right challenge."

If you're going to imitate somebody, try to get your form correctly. It's the little quirks each person has with his or her posts that really sells the illusion.

 

[England my lionheart]

IMO it's not really a challenge to be answered,as stated below it basically says whatever you do you cannot answer the challenge even with the whole of Mankind of course the mischievous Jinns for help and even if you did produce anything like it it would'nt be accepted ,I think it was a clever piece of writing for the period but the challenge is not clear with no rules for meeting the challenge.
I could photocopy it i suppose would that count


Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'án, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

 

[Shahzad]

There's no one who could judge such a challenge objectively. Muslims themselves obviously can't judge it, being obliged under the threat of eternal damnation to say that any challenger has failed. That's why it's a completely worthless challenge and should be treated with the mocking contempt it deserves. I'd expect better from a divine writer.

 

[Breathe]

The Qur'an Challenge? That's this isn't it?

I think it's impossible to judge it objectively for many; a Muslim could not bring themselves to say, "Yes, this is equal to a surah of the Qur'an" - because it would go against their scripture and they would have to be prepared to admit that the Qur'an may not be from God. That would be dangerous for their faiths, perhaps?


About the Challenge
http://www.theinimitablequran.com/uniquelitform.pdf
The Challenge of the Quran - English (some other related links at bottom)

Generally, for the challenge to be valid at a guess, it must be in Arabic (as the Qur'an is in Arabic), it must have a similar feel and rhyme to it, and it must be by one author, unchanged, and to talk about similar topics. Some people say something about.. 19, I think, though I don't know much about this (the claim that numbers throughout the Qur'an are multiples of 19 or something? I forget).

www.suralikeit.com
A website where people post their surah's like the Qur'an (though, who judges them?). I believe that possibly an atheist or a non-Muslim who has studied the Qur'an and has knowledge of classical Arabic would be able to judge it.

 

[Wandered Off]

One of the doctrines that I have seen invoked when someone tries the challenge is this: Allah is said to know if your motives are impure or you are not approaching with proper humility - and Allah will purposefully obscure the truth from you.

This looks like a trump card, because any and every challenge can be dismissed on the basis that the challenger obviously is having the truth obscured by Allah or not approaching with the proper attitude.

 

[Shahzad]

I don't think Muhammad was really serious when he offered the challenge. It seems to have been borne more out of frustration with the Arab pagans who rejected him rather than an honest attempt at debate. The Quran contains no criteria by which we could judge such a challenge.

 

[Ghostaka]

Quote:
---
Allah himself challenged the Arabs to match His book.

“Or they say ‘he [Muhammad] forged it', Say: ‘Bring ten chapters like it and call [to your help] whomever you can other than Allah if you speak the truth”
[TMQ Hud: 13]​

And then:

“If you are in doubt of what we have revealed to our messenger, then produce one chapter like it. Call upon all your helpers, besides Allah, if you are truthful” [TMQ Al-baqarah: 23]

​

Here it can be seen that God himself is challenging the doubters [and all the help they can muster] to produce ten similar chapters to the Qur'an. In the latter challenge the challenge is lessened to only one single like chapter.

Chapter has been translated from the Arabic sura [pl. suwar ]. The smallest sura or chapter is sura kauthar which is only three lines long, thus the final challenge made was to produce only three lines that matched the Qur'an. In effect Allah told the Arabs this book is from Him. He laid down the simplest of tasks that they could never achieve. It was a poignant exclamation to the authenticity of the Qur'an.
History attests that the Arabs were not able to meet the challenge. This inimitable quality is known as i'jaz ul-quran , the miraculous nature of the Qur'an.
The Qur'an clearly is an Arabic discourse. If the Arabs could meet the challenge then the Qur'an would have simply been from Muhammad or one of the Arabs. As not one of them could then it could not have been from any one of them. It could not have been from any non-Arabs either being an Arabic book, so it must be from God himself. We will examine this in detail in the next section...

---(scroll down to History also attests that the Arabs were awed by what they heard)

Peace be upon you.

 

[England my lionheart]

Ghostaka,interesting reasoning,what proof do you have that it is indeed Allah who is making the challenge.

 

[YmirGF]

Ghostaka,interesting reasoning,what proof do you have that it is indeed Allah who is making the challenge.

Now that is an interesting question.

 

[England my lionheart]

Now that is an interesting question.

And will be answered by Ghostaka and Fatihah re stating the challenge

 

[England my lionheart]

The challenge itself proves nothing as the writers of the Quran were Human and there isn't any proof of devine influence to back up the challenge

 

[kai]

why do people think its divine? what reason? i don't get it.


Ok so Arabs couldn't make an equal but says who? Muslims? that's hardly surprising is it?

The book says that it cant be matched and if you believe the book then it cant be matched. its circular reasoning isn't it ?



How exactly can a book be miraculous?

The Qur'an is miraculous because the eloquence of its language is so amazing, so sublime as to peak in every characteristic of Arabic as to be unmatchable. To the Arabs who heard it, it was undoubtedly not from a human being. Indeed the language is such that it cannot be imitated at all by man, even a small part. This is one of the attributes of a miracle, inimitability, no-one else can repeat the miracle, or even conceive of attempting it as it is beyond the realms of natural law. The splitting of the red sea is an example of this. No-one else can repeat this phenomenon. The revelation of the Qur'an is equally miraculous and inimitable, but requires a little more depth of thought to appreciate.

http://www.caliphate.co.uk/beliefs/proofquran.htm


again says who?


try this one:


C: An Internal Critique of the Qur'an

http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/debate/part2.htm


of course once you submit, you pull down the shutters on Critique.

 

[Zephyr]

I can make a book of equal or greater value than the Quran.

Chapter one: Be excellent to each other.

Chapter two: Party on dudes!

 

[Ghostaka]

The challenge itself proves nothing as the writers of the Quran were Human and there isn't any proof of devine influence to back up the challenge

Now I'm sure you all understand the justification of asking where your proof is for your claim in this case right?

Anyone with a good appreciation of linguistic/rhythmic creativity (if that is a term)/literature and can do this in Arabic (even though a non-believer) would admit that this could not be the work of a human. This has occurred repeatedly to this date.

Where's my proof, the fact that nobody has been able to fully accept and then beat the challenge.

Lol, it is your comment that "proves nothing".

Peace be upon you.