The Challenge in the Qur'an

[Ghostaka]

Ok so Arabs couldn't make an equal but says who? Muslims? that's hardly surprising is it?

Who else is going to point that out? If you knew an Arab (and knew that (s)he was exceptional in poetry/literature education) who would except such a challenge and then fail, would you draw attention to that fact or bury it?

The book says that it cant be matched and if you believe the book then it cant be matched. its circular reasoning isn't it ?

On the contrary bud:

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This is very different from the Christian argument that one should have faith in the Bible. When asked why I should have such faith one missionary replied by opening the bible and pointing out a verse that commanded you must have faith in the Bible! This is known as a circular argument; believe in the book because the book says so, and is intellectually bankrupt. Such an argument cannot amount to a definite belief for any case.

Rather with the Qur'an the Muslim must first understand its challenges, its inimitable nature, and the fact that this demonstrates it is a miracle and finally then that a miracle must come from God. After proving the divine revelation of the Qur'an from without, we can now happily take anything inside knowing that it is from the creator. More than this we are obliged to.
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again says who?

People who have accepted the challenge and failed as well as the rest of the people who watched them fail (both Muslim and Non-Mulsim).

try this one:

C: An Internal Critique of the Qur'an

"Is the Qur'an the Word of God?" - Part 2

of course once you submit, you pull down the shutters on Critique.

The references/quotes from this article belong to people who looked at the Qur'an without accepting the challenge. They are basically providing no evidence for their claims except for quoting others who have done the same. Would you call that pulling down the shutters? Furthermore, since they haven't accepted the challenge or at least failed when they did, wouldn't that make the article unrelated? :camp:

Peace be upon you.

 

[kai]

Who else is going to point that out? If you knew an Arab (and knew that (s)he was exceptional in poetry/literature education) who would except such a challenge and then fail, would you draw attention to that fact or bury it?
Me personally i would draw attention to it, but forgive me but as a Muslim you are told in the Quran that the challenge cannot be met so you are bound to find anything lacking. but agiain i have to ask what the heck is the challenge who judges and what is the criteria , remember its only muslims that believe its innerant or divine or in fact beautiful.
On the contrary bud:

---
This is very different from the Christian argument that one should have faith in the Bible. When asked why I should have such faith one missionary replied by opening the bible and pointing out a verse that commanded you must have faith in the Bible! This is known as a circular argument; believe in the book because the book says so, and is intellectually bankrupt. Such an argument cannot amount to a definite belief for any case. i fail to see the difference

Rather with the Qur'an the Muslim must first understand its challenges, its inimitable nature, and the fact that this demonstrates it is a miracle and finally then that a miracle must come from God. After proving the divine revelation of the Qur'an from without, we can now happily take anything inside knowing that it is from the creator. More than this we are obliged to.
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People who have accepted the challenge and failed as well as the rest of the people who watched them fail (both Muslim and Non-Mulsim). when? who? and how?

The references/quotes from this article belong to people who looked at the Qur'an without accepting the challenge. They are basically providing no evidence for their claims except for quoting others who have done the same. Would you call that pulling down the shutters? Furthermore, since they haven't accepted the challenge or at least failed when they did, wouldn't that make the article unrelated? :camp:

Ghostaka in my opinion there is no challenge ,its a rigged jury, If muslims are the judge (and i dont see any rules or criteria) they cannot be impartial.

Peace be upon you.

Ghostaka can you outline the criteria for this challenge? because i am afraid its nothing more than flim flam. now i don't mean to be offensive here but its trickery, its a challenge no one can meet because first off, any criteria i can see, must be judged by Muslims. Its impossible not by miracle but by machination. I used that article on purpose because you used an Islamic one where on earth would i find anything unbiased ? can you provide me with a source concerning Quranic divinity ,beauty etc that is not Islamic? No i dont think so.

Like i have already said ,its a matter of opinion that the Quran is so unique, or that Arabic is so beautiful, or that the structure of the Quran is Unique, and that opinion is mainly Islamic.So only Islam can judge the challenge rendering it no challenge at all ,but a master-stroke of circular reasoning. before this goes any further all we all ask is:

what is the criteria of the challenge? and who judges that criteria?

 

[kai]

My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world bring me her equal!

you see this challenge cannot be met because I think she is beautiful in many ways and I love my wife and more importantly for you i am the judge

Echo and the Bunnymen are the greatest group of all time, their music is so good that it can only be divinly inspired, bring me their equal.

Again this challenge cannot be met because i like Echo and the Bunnymen i have been listening to them for decades and again more importantly i am the judge


what more can i say Music,Art ,Beauty its all in the eye of the beholder. Arabic script can be beautiful but in my eyes so can far eastern calligraphy, something truly divine would i think stand out to us all.

 

[YmirGF]

Now I'm sure you all understand the justification of asking where your proof is for your claim in this case right?

Anyone with a good appreciation of linguistic/rhythmic creativity (if that is a term)/literature and can do this in Arabic (even though a non-believer) would admit that this could not be the work of a human. This has occurred repeatedly to this date.

Where's my proof, the fact that nobody has been able to fully accept and then beat the challenge.

Lol, it is your comment that "proves nothing".

Peace be upon you.

So it is a fact that the challenge must be produced in Ancient Arabic then and that no other language would be deemed acceptable?

 

[kai]

So it is a fact that the challenge must be produced in Ancient Arabic then and that no other language would be deemed acceptable?

that would be one way to exclude most of the population of the planet earth from partaking.

 

[Breathe]

Now I'm sure you all understand the justification of asking where your proof is for your claim in this case right?

Ummm, it works the other way around - if you're claiming something is from the Divine, you are the one who should provide the proof. It's a case of "it's not Divine until we get proof", not "it's Divine until we get proof it's not".

Anyone with a good appreciation of linguistic/rhythmic creativity (if that is a term)/literature and can do this in Arabic (even though a non-believer) would admit that this could not be the work of a human. This has occurred repeatedly to this date.

I have an Arab friend, and a Canadian friend who has studied both Classical and Modern Arabic to a professional level (he is a translator). Both disagree and believe it is the work of a human, just one who was skilled. Like a native. See, maybe it appears to be from God to you, but some will disagree. If there was absolutely no denial, then there would be no Arabic speaker who would not be a Muslim. Right?

Where's my proof, the fact that nobody has been able to fully accept and then beat the challenge.

www.suralikeit.com - No Muslim is going to believe one of these are equal though, are they? Because to do so would make their faith invalidated, correct?

What do you make of the Guru Granth Sahib, anyway? This is easily a beautiful piece of work - or would you discard it because it's not Arabic?

This doesn't make sense, considering that the Torah was written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and the Gospels would have been orally transmitted via Aramaic and then Koine Greek - so Arabic can't be the only langauge for the challenge.

 

[kai]

very interesting:

Guru Granth Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sandandfoam]

Echo and the Bunnymen are the greatest group of all time.

Clean that wax from your ears man!!

 

[England my lionheart]

Now I'm sure you all understand the justification of asking where your proof is for your claim in this case right?

Anyone with a good appreciation of linguistic/rhythmic creativity (if that is a term)/literature and can do this in Arabic (even though a non-believer) would admit that this could not be the work of a human. This has occurred repeatedly to this date.

Where's my proof, the fact that nobody has been able to fully accept and then beat the challenge.
Lol, it is your comment that "proves nothing".

I have nothing to prove,i'm not claiming that God spoke to me,i'm not claiming to be illiterate i'm not claiming that a book i dictated is a miracle and complete (even though they cannot understand it without the Ahadiths) so it is Muslims who need to prove the book was written by Allah,lol good luck..

Peace be upon you

 

[England my lionheart]

The killing Moon is a good track from Echo

 

[Breathe]

very interesting:

Guru Granth Sahib - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And not to mention, a kirtan gurbani is an amazing thing, with awesome and deep lyrics.

YouTube - Such is the diamond; the Lord's Immaculate Name
YouTube - One Who Calls Himself A Sikh of The Guru, The True Guru


I found this interesting too!

The Granth Sahib contains 937 hymns of 36 Hindu saints, Muslim sufis and bards. The hymns of the these holy men cover a period of six centuries (from the 12th to the 17th century). Regardless of the author, this gurbani has an equal status as the hymns of the Gurus.
Source: Sikhism Guide - Guru Granth Sahib

 

[kai]

Clean that wax from your ears man!!

Blasphemer! its divine intervention man.

 

[kai]

The killing Moon is a good track from Echo

the album Ocean rain is divine intervention no human or Jinn can produce the like.

lets not derail the thread people, Echo can wait,on with the show.



Of course one major problem we have when trying to discuss this, is that the challenge is for non Muslims to take up, so Muslims don't have to show the slightest interest in it.

 

[England my lionheart]

People who have accepted the challenge and failed as well as the rest of the people who watched them fail (both Muslim and Non-Mulsim).

So they failed,in what way does it prove it came from Allah and not a Human.

 

[kai]

People who have accepted the challenge and failed as well as the rest of the people who watched them fail (both Muslim and Non-Mulsim).

So they failed,in what way does it prove it came from Allah and not a Human.

because the Quran says so?

 

[England my lionheart]

because the Quran says so?

Oops silly me

 

[Phasmid]

Is it actually a formal challenge? Sounds to me like the suras are simply saying, "The Quran is awesome, no one else can write like this". Is it really asking people to try?

 

[Breathe]

Is it actually a formal challenge? Sounds to me like the suras are simply saying, "The Quran is awesome, no one else can write like this". Is it really asking people to try?

I don't think it is; from what I've been told if someone attempts to then they will go to hell for it... if so, why would anyone be willing to take that chance if they believed that this God could be correct? Sure stops any believer with questions in their mind from trying at a guess?

 

[England my lionheart]

I agree,it's more a statement

 

[Ghostaka]

My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world bring me her equal!

Nobody is saying she was fabricated are they?

you see this challenge cannot be met because I think she is beautiful in many ways and I love my wife and more importantly for you i am the judge

You can go on thinking she is beautiful... because I haven't "claimed" she wasn't.

Echo and the Bunnymen are the greatest group of all time, their music is so good that it can only be divinly inspired, bring me their equal.

Nobody said their music was fabricated either.

Again this challenge cannot be met because i like Echo and the Bunnymen i have been listening to them for decades and again more importantly i am the judge

Same problem.

what more can i say Music,Art ,Beauty its all in the eye of the beholder. Arabic script can be beautiful but in my eyes so can far eastern calligraphy, something truly divine would i think stand out to us all.

So their music or your wife's beauty wouldn't stand out to "us all"? Of course, I agree. But nobody is claiming that they are fake. Divine scripture (the Qur'an) is different. Since there are people who are claiming that it is fabricated/produced by humans. Calligraphy is not the issue here; it's not how the Qur'an looks like visually. It is how it reads. If you examine the Qur'an for un-matchability(?) and you are a person who appreciates literature in it's original language (because you can read and comprehend what is being said at the same time) you will see that it cannot possibly be made by humans.

Peace be upon you (I hope I'm not causing more confusion)()