The Challenge in the Qur'an

[YmirGF]

I'll get back to you about the rules aspect.

Thanks you in advance, Ghostaka. I am genuinely curious about this subject and look forward to the nuts and bolts of the so-called "challenge".

 

[Breathe]

OK so now its an Arabic challenge? didnt it say in the book "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support." S. 17:88

That does definitely make me wonder what Muslims make of the Guru Granth Sahib then, since the challenge is wider than many Muslims claim.

 

[nawab]

i beleive the challenge includes

1) has to be expressed in ancient eloqvent arabic in bedouin style poetry/ rythemic

2) includes prophessies anout future events

3) miracles, which the people didnt know about like the daily knowledge and which leads to betterment of the civilisation ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnsP...1AE1D7B01&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7


4) have a mathematical locking system( like the number of the words appearing)
ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u0DhneGm78

5) history, Law and order, a constitution. perfect examples

please take time to watch the two videos especially the 2nd one and then even swear at me for wasting your time,

May Allah guide us all

 

[Breathe]

i beleive the challenge includes

1) has to be expressed in ancient eloqvent arabic in bedouin style poetry/ rythemic

Why ancient eloquent Arabic in Bendouin-style poetry?

 

[nawab]

Before, there were various different kind of Arabs, there were many different dialects at the time, God almighty prefered the Arabic which prophet Ishmael spoke, to use his arabic to be the of the arabic language, since he was a prophet of God. we Muslims claim that the tribe of Prophet Muhammad PBUH being decendants of Prophet Ishmael spoke that same arabic dialect which Prophet Ishmael was taught. with the revelation of the quran, the grammer and the standard of the arabic language was also finalised. plus arabic is very expressive, very good for describing different levels of emotions, so even by the words you can understand easily how a person is feeling,

Now regarding your second part of the question why the bedouin style poetry,

see God almighty in his divine majesty, does try to proof to unfaithful men that he is far superior then them, so the miracles the prophet does as to be relevant to the community and at the same time distinguish the difference, like the example below

during the time of prophet Moses, his famous miracle turning stick into a serpent. the egyptians who were against him were mostly talented in Magic/ so the miracles of Moses we can see are quite like of a magician like changing the colour of the palm and turning a stick into a serpent, yet the snake which moses made with Gods help was far superior as the pharohs magicians can only cause illusions to our eyes and it seems that the sticks and ropes has become snakes, but in reality they were just sticks and ropes but the snake of Moses actually became a real snake and to put the magicians to thier place the snake of moses ate the rest of the them,

then during the time of another mighty prophet Jesus, at his time mostly the people were learned now and they were talented in the art of healing/medicine. so the miracles of Jesus done by God through him were like a Psysian, healing the blind and lyperds, rasing the dead, but these sicknesses were incurable, and even the best doctor among his comunity cannot raise the dead, heal the blind or lyperds by medicine.

Now in the time of the prophet Muhammd PBUH, the art which the people were boasting about was poetry (bedouin style) and in the time of the ignorance, the arabs spend their time by poetry and thus some were even famed for reciting poetry at the drop of a hat metaphornically) now even Prophet Muhammad have some miracles like the stones saluting him and splitting the moon in half but he never emphasized on them when he was asked that Moses and Jesus both had miracles where is your miracle he replied my mircale is the quran now for a Ummi (unlettered, uneducated, a arab who could just speak little arabic)

1) for him to bring verses from time to time in a language he couldnt master
2) with prophecies, historical events, scientific miracles, constitutions, law and justice, maritial and inheritence rules,
3) even mentioning that the body of the pharoh at the time of moses who drowned in the splitted river that his body will remain a clear sign until judgement day is absolutly impossible.
4) with the matematical numeral locking system
5) for him to mention things which are consider politically dumb as he made the Arabs beleive that a Jewess "Maryam"(virgin Mary), mother of Christ was a woman chosen above women of all nations, not his mother, wives, daughters, Aunts, Grandmother,or any other Arab women, naturally any Arab would have thought that a best woman would be an Arab women. not to mention at that time the arabs were looked down by the Jews as the Jews were considered elite to them and by just saying the Virgin Mary was the best woman, already started to have a conflict with the Jews i mean why would he do such a silly thing. to turn your elites int your enemies

i mean if you try to determine the possibilities it is imposible for a human to author the quran, i am open for corrections its only an islamic point of view.

Sorry i apologised for a huge speech as my intentions was just to explain the detailed facts to you but i understand its quite alot and i just came back from Japan after a long time and i have lost much of my english vocabulary and how to make things short.

Peace

 

[Riverwolf]

Before, there were various different kind of Arabs, there were many different dialects at the time, God almighty prefered the Arabic which prophet Ishmael spoke, to use his arabic to be the of the arabic language, since he was a prophet of God. we Muslims claim that the tribe of Prophet Muhammad PBUH being decendants of Prophet Ishmael spoke that same arabic dialect which Prophet Ishmael was taught. with the revelation of the quran, the grammer and the standard of the arabic language was also finalised. plus arabic is very expressive, very good for describing different levels of emotions, so even by the words you can understand easily how a person is feeling,

Now regarding your second part of the question why the bedouin style poetry,

see God almighty in his divine majesty, does try to proof to unfaithful men that he is far superior then them, so the miracles the prophet does as to be relevant to the community and at the same time distinguish the difference, like the example below

during the time of prophet Moses, his famous miracle turning stick into a serpent. the egyptians who were against him were mostly talented in Magic/ so the miracles of Moses we can see are quite like of a magician like changing the colour of the palm and turning a stick into a serpent, yet the snake which moses made with Gods help was far superior as the pharohs magicians can only cause illusions to our eyes and it seems that the sticks and ropes has become snakes, but in reality they were just sticks and ropes but the snake of Moses actually became a real snake and to put the magicians to thier place the snake of moses ate the rest of the them,

then during the time of another mighty prophet Jesus, at his time mostly the people were learned now and they were talented in the art of healing/medicine. so the miracles of Jesus done by God through him were like a Psysian, healing the blind and lyperds, rasing the dead, but these sicknesses were incurable, and even the best doctor among his comunity cannot raise the dead, heal the blind or lyperds by medicine.

Now in the time of the prophet Muhammd PBUH, the art which the people were boasting about was poetry (bedouin style) and in the time of the ignorance, the arabs spend their time by poetry and thus some were even famed for reciting poetry at the drop of a hat metaphornically) now even Prophet Muhammad have some miracles like the stones saluting him and splitting the moon in half but he never emphasized on them when he was asked that Moses and Jesus both had miracles where is your miracle he replied my mircale is the quran now for a Ummi (unlettered, uneducated, a arab who could just speak little arabic)

1) for him to bring verses from time to time in a language he couldnt master
2) with prophecies, historical events, scientific miracles, constitutions, law and justice, maritial and inheritence rules,
3) even mentioning that the body of the pharoh at the time of moses who drowned in the splitted river that his body will remain a clear sign until judgement day is absolutly impossible.
4) with the matematical numeral locking system
5) for him to mention things which are consider politically dumb as he made the Arabs beleive that a Jewess "Maryam"(virgin Mary), mother of Christ was a woman chosen above women of all nations, not his mother, wives, daughters, Aunts, Grandmother,or any other Arab women, naturally any Arab would have thought that a best woman would be an Arab women. not to mention at that time the arabs were looked down by the Jews as the Jews were considered elite to them and by just saying the Virgin Mary was the best woman, already started to have a conflict with the Jews i mean why would he do such a silly thing. to turn your elites int your enemies

i mean if you try to determine the possibilities it is imposible for a human to author the quran, i am open for corrections its only an islamic point of view.

Sorry i apologised for a huge speech as my intentions was just to explain the detailed facts to you but i understand its quite alot and i just came back from Japan after a long time and i have lost much of my english vocabulary and how to make things short.

Peace

These are fine criteria, sure, but where are they outlined in the Qur'an itself? The book seems pretty ambiguous on the subject.

 

[kai]

These are fine criteria, sure, but where are they outlined in the Qur'an itself? The book seems pretty ambiguous on the subject.

indeed some one has been busy but who? and under whos authority? What is it with Arabic? is the challenge for Arabs then? and is the challenge for Arabs that can speak or write 7th century Arabic? surely God can reveal his wishes etc in any language or is this an Arab puzzle a little like the seven golden odes?

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/196308/seven.golden.odes.htm


as a matter of interest does anyone judge these attempts ?

suralikeit.com

 

[ManTimeForgot]

This whole challenge boils down to: My arguments contain more "truthiness" than anything else. Bring me their equal or know that they must be divine.

I'm not going to fall for a trap composed of pure subjectivism.


Of course it does get my imagination running a bit wild: like I wonder what would happen if hyper advanced aliens decided to create a work which mathematically duplicated the Qu'ran's features, what would people do/believe then?

MTF

 

[England my lionheart]

IMO the challenge was'nt thought out very well because its a very localised challenge with no thought for the sread of Islam in the future or language,its not a challenge open to anyone

 

[kai]

IMO the challenge was'nt thought out very well because its a very localised challenge with no thought for the sread of Islam in the future or language,its not a challenge open to anyone

indeed it strikes me as very Arab in nature.

 

[ThereIsNoSpoon]

This is no real challenge. Or if it is one then it already (formally) fails at the very beginning.
As i mentioned already in another thread the first mistake (formally) can already be found in:
4:82. Do they not consider the Qur'án (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.

IF this book is from others than Allah, THEN there would SURELY be errors in it.
Logical negation:
IF there are NO errors in this book, THEN the book SURELY is from Allah.

Task: find one book that contains no error. I guess i do not need to state that this is easy.

A correct (ly interpreted) verse would have to read: "A book of God mustn't contain errors". This would of course not automatically mean that any book without errors is from God but it at least states that any book claiming to be from God can't contain mistakes. It would be a falsification challenge.

Second part of the challenge.
As my experience tells me it is easy to find a surah like the ones in the quran provided that the muslim you discuss it with doesn't know every verse in the quran.
So when you "invent" a verse and the person you speak with doesn't know its invented, then you have a good chance that he actually believes you. If he knows the quran he won't.
If the challenge however is intended "generally" (meaning regardless of knowledge of the quran and or belief) then it therefore fails daily. If it is intended with the audience only the learned muslim, then there is no chance it will ever fail and is no real challenge.

 

[Ghostaka]

indeed it strikes me as very Arab in nature.

It seems not to be the case actually. The challenge like brother Nawab has mentioned, is more than just being able to replicate the eloquence and beauty of the Qur'an. There are a bunch of other factors a potential challenger must be able to accomplish as a result of producing a surah like that of those in the Qur'an.

Thus Allah says in the Chapter 2 of the Holy Qur'an:

(23) And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.

It seems that brother Fatihah has already addressed this issue a couple of times now . Quote coming up...:

Response: It's not about writing a book in arabic. You can write it in any language you want. I've explained the specific miracle before. So once again, here it is as presented in another thread:

" It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made. Muhammad used a religion to inspired enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands."

Peace be upon you (thanks for waiting but the wheel need not be re-invented; of sorts)

 

[kai]

Ghostaka,
well Fatihah has simplified matters and you are only asking for another wheel not to reinvent it , therefore every other" Holy" scripture has already fulfilled the criteria.even the "corrupted ones have inspired men follow its teachings and to conquer nations.


"It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation"


world history says otherwise!

 

[Breathe]

It seems not to be the case actually. The challenge like brother Nawab has mentioned, is more than just being able to replicate the eloquence and beauty of the Qur'an. There are a bunch of other factors a potential challenger must be able to accomplish as a result of producing a surah like that of those in the Qur'an.

Ah, but not only Arabic can have beauty. I think you should have a look at the kirtan gurbani videos I posted earlier here, perhaps you would like them - I would be interested in to knowing your opinion.

This is a whole book written by multiple individuals themselves, and it easily as beautiful as the Qur'an, and easily just as meaningful.

To me, to make it only Classical Arabic poetry of a Bedouin style is unfair and reading into the challenge.

 

[kai]

Ah, but not only Arabic can have beauty. I think you should have a look at the kirtan gurbani videos I posted earlier here, perhaps you would like them - I would be interested in to knowing your opinion.

This is a whole book written by multiple individuals themselves, and it easily as beautiful as the Qur'an, and easily just as meaningful.

To me, to make it only Classical Arabic poetry of a Bedouin style is unfair and reading into the challenge.

maybe it has to appeal to a classical Arab Bedouin?

 

[Breathe]

maybe it has to appeal to a classical Arab Bedouin?

Maybe if we build a time machine, we can show them it.

 

[kai]

Maybe if we build a time machine, we can show them it.

maybe then we could at least answer the challenge eh!

 

[YmirGF]

I do find it amusing that some say we need to use Ancient Arabic and Fatihah claims we do not. I wonder if these folks can actually get their own "challenge" straight.

 

[kai]

I do find it amusing that some say we need to use Ancient Arabic and Fatihah claims we do not. I wonder if these folks can actually get their own "challenge" straight.

Thats the problem! no one knows the criteria, and those that say they do need to state on what authority they are using the said criteria. becaused there isnt any in the Quran.

 

[nawab]

yes actually you are right here, it does

like the miracles of Moses, convinced the magicians, being in a land of magic
like the miracles of Jesus, being in a land of the learned scribes being in a learned time
and the language/expressions had to convince the dumb Bedouin Pagan tribes
God Almighty knew that when Islam will enter into other lands a different translation will be available accordingly due to time, so if you think you cant learn arabic then do it in the language you master, use all the computer technology with all things i include you will not be able to produce it, just by watching the second video which can clearly explain the miracle of mathematical numbering of words in the Quran was impossible for an Arab, some Arabs or all of them to produce

maybe it has to appeal to a classical Arab Bedouin?