The Challenge in the Qur'an

[Sahar]

wow that's amazing are you telling me that you could have a conversation with someone from the 7th century and that you right the same charactors in your day to day life as they would.

Arabic is not a dead language or religious language confined to the Qur'an or something.
Of course we can have this kind of conversation!!

 

[Breathe]

Arabic is not a dead language or religious language confined to the Qur'an or something.
Of course we can have this kind of conversation!!

It makes me wonder how Arabic has managed to stay so uniform, considering languages change massively.

One only has to look at European languages (Anglo-Saxon Old English vs Modern English) are hugely different, what's Arabic's secret?

 

[JMorris]

culture clash

in the west we seek progress, we thrive on it, constantly throwing away old ideas for better ones
in islam, nothing changes, nothing, and thats the way its supposed to be, who needs a better idea when you have a 8th century idea?

 

[kai]

Arabic is not a dead language or religious language confined to the Qur'an or something.
Of course we can have this kind of conversation!!

Hi not4me

I didn't mean it was a dead language i meant languages change like English has changed in 1400 years.do Egyptians speak the same Arabic as a Yemeni or a Jordanian?

 

[England my lionheart]

First,Understand that showing more than a translation to distort Qur'an is meaningless.
The Holy Qur'an is book that exist in it's original only one text.
2:23
و إن كنتم في ريب مما نزلنا على عبدنا فأتوا بسورة من مثله وادعوا شهداءكم من دون الله إن كنتم صادقين
4:82
أفلا يتدبرون القرآن و لو كان من عند غير الله لوجدوا فيه إختلافاً كثيراً
17:88
قل لئن اجتمعت الإنس والجن على أن يأتوا بمثل هذا القرآن لا يأتون بمثله ولو كان بعضهم لبعض ظهيراً
So many Arabs converted to Islam after reading the Qur'an and realizing that people and

poets couldn't write such a book,and that Qur'an is not poetry.I believe that the translation can't show exactly the same rhetorical and literary miracle of the Qur'an.but whether you speak Arabic (The Arabic dialect of the Qur'an became the standerd Arabic since it was revealed)or any language you will not be able to produce such a book.
Rhetorical and literary side of the Qur'an may not mean too much to many,but this is only a part of the Qur'anic challenge.Qur'an is giving you a challenge
2:23
And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Surah like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (if there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
4:82
82. Do they not consider the Qur'án (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
17:88
Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'án, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support
18:1
Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:
41:41-42
Those who reject the Message when it comes to them (are not hidden from Us). And indeed it is a Book of exalted power.
If you think people can write it, show us a single Book (in any language) Like the Qur'an,a book written 1400 years ago that explains scientific facts Quran Miracles - Miracles of the Qur'an , has no erros http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/quranic-debates/79891-quran-free-errors.html (post #6-)
2.24

But if ye cannot, and of a surety ye cannot, then fear the fire whose fuel is Men and Stones, which is prepared for those who reject Faith.​

MMMMM i've heard much of the scientific miracles of the Quran but yet to see one

 

[cardero]

Echo and the Bunnymen are the greatest group of all time, their music is so good that it can only be divinly inspired, bring me their equal.

Again this challenge cannot be met because i like Echo and the Bunnymen i have been listening to them for decades and again more importantly i am the judge

You won me over, where do I sign up?

 

[A-ManESL]

Forgive me for intruding in the conversation like this, but I would like to point out the meaning of the quoted verse as I see it since I feel that a proper analysis is not being made.

To non Muslims who are seeking to understand the so called challenge in the verse I will first recommend that you need to make a serious effort if you wish to learn from religious scriptures. For starters you need to realize that no religious scripture (or religious truth in a wider sense) is over and above the society and environment within which it first came into being. It uses idioms and allegories suitable for that society to convey the message. Without first putting yourself in the shoes of a person of that age you have no hope of understanding what the scripture meant when it addressed him. For people in the Middle East hell was fire, for people in Greenland, fire was probably sacred. The important thing is not to draw conclusions directly but look at the historical and social context within which it was made and to try to understand it in that framework. Moreover many verses of The Quran are allegorical (Quran 3:7 states this itself).

Now for the interpretation. The verses are addressed to Arabs of the 7th century. The Arabs of that period were a semi-civilized barabaric people, who indulged in practices like live burials of girl child etc. One of the few things thing they held in high value was oral poetry. (They didn't value the prose to that extent). Their esteem for poetry can be gauaged from the fact that their name for a non-Arab was Ajmi(related to dumb). To them the breathtaking torrent of the Quran was astonishing and unheard of and even led some of them to dub the prophet as a magician. Many people like Umar bin Khattab(RA) were struck so suddenly and powerfully that it led to their immediate and complete transformation. The Quran is addressing the Arabs of that period . The extended challenge was a kind of proof that the Quran offered for its divinity to Arabs of that period. To think that it is a sort of challenge to be faced today is incorrect. Its message was that God can do things unheard of by people, and that is how the verse should be interpreted today.

Regards

 

[England my lionheart]

Thats a good explanation ManESL and makes sense

 

[Peace]

Hi not4me

I didn't mean it was a dead language i meant languages change like English has changed in 1400 years.do Egyptians speak the same Arabic as a Yemeni or a Jordanian?

There is a difference between dialects and the standard Arabic Kai. Dialect is the spoken language which differs from one country to another, but Standard Classical Arabic is the one we speak at schools, universities; also it is used in offices, news.... Books are written in Standard Arabic not dialects.
If we meet an Arab from another country we try to speak standard Arabic so as to well communicate. Whoever learns standard Arabic can understand the Quran.
And yes we can communicate with the Arabs of the 7th Century and understand each other.
Standard Arabic language never dies; it is the language of the Quran which every educated literate Arab can read and understand.

 

[riverfox]

It makes me wonder how Arabic has managed to stay so uniform, considering languages change massively.

One only has to look at European languages (Anglo-Saxon Old English vs Modern English) are hugely different, what's Arabic's secret?

Yeah Arabic is considered to be the Only language that hasn't change for such a long time.The Qur'an (Which its Arabic dialect and Grammer rules became the standerd Arabic) is the secret.

 

[kai]

Thanks for those explanations on Arabic , very interesting

 

[kai]

so where we with this "challenge" we cant get a consensus on whether it has to be in Arabic or not i personally don't see how you can do it otherwise, only an Arabic Quran is a true Quran.

But who judges it? that seems to me to be the biggest problem a judge should be impartial shouldn't he/she ?

 

[YmirGF]

so where we with this "challenge" we cant get a consensus on whether it has to be in Arabic or not i personally don't see how you can do it otherwise, only an Arabic Quran is a true Quran.

But who judges it? that seems to me to be the biggest problem a judge should be impartial shouldn't he/she ?

I asked the same question in post 86. Does anyone have an answer?

 

[England my lionheart]

I asked the same question in post 86. Does anyone have an answer?

I have asked aswell but so far nobody seems to know,in fact there does'nt appear to be any agreement with anything to do with the challenge although ManESLs post had some sense to it.

 

[YmirGF]

I have asked aswell but so far nobody seems to know,in fact there does'nt appear to be any agreement with anything to do with the challenge although ManESLs post had some sense to it.

I am wondering what you call a challenge that no one can possibly fulfill? Calling it a "challenge" most certainly is not accurate, especially if the judges of the challenge believe the Qur'an is already superior. It doesn't make sense.

 

[England my lionheart]

Fatihah is a judge,because i said i don't know the criteria or speak Arabic i have failed so its 80 lashes at least.

 

[England my lionheart]

I have tried to look the challenge up on Islam online.net but could'nt find anything related to it.

 

[Breathe]

I asked the same question in post 86. Does anyone have an answer?

From what we've had, I guess we can safely guess: there isn't one. It's not a challenge, just a claim you can't disprove. As Kai said, it is subjective, "You can't make one like this, because God wrote this one? Don't believe me, make one yourself - you can't! Even if everyone helps everyone, you won't make one as good as this!" - Same was I could say, Prove Modern Art isn't the best artwork ever! (Ew, I can't believe I said that, I hate modern art )

Reason I've come to that conclusion is that there are no criteria mentioned in the Qur'an nor ahadith and different Muslims have given different answers

At a guess, most Muslims believe that the challenge, before it can even be considered, must be:
* Delivered from God (how do you know?)
* Brought by a Messenger shrug
* Dictated by an Angel shrug
* Uncorrupted (Certain other Holy Texts meet this criterion, like the Sikh Guru Granth Sahib )

In order to be considered, so that's everyone else screwed.

Other Muslims however, give more criteria:
* Poetry (why?)
* Written in Classical Arabic (why?)
* Bedouin Style Poetry (why?)

In my view, the first three are impossible to prove ("how do you know there is a God?, how do you know they are really a prophet?, how do you know it was really an angel?") - I believe in prophets, God and angels though, but how can one prove they exist, let alone something being from them? It's impossible to.

As for "Uncorrupted", this is not a major issue in today's society, as a majority of people are literate.

But the last three, poetry, classical Arabic, and Bedouin style: why? The Qur'an does not give these criteria, it just says the whole of mankind and jinn could not.

This in my view presents an unfair, tiny ethno-centric box on those whom are capable of doing the challenge: I cannot, I don't speak Arabic (but God speaks all languages), let alone classical, formal written standard Arabic, I'm not a big poet, and I have no idea what Bedouin poetry sounds like. I doubt many in the Western world or those outside of the immediate Area of the traditional Bedouin tribal locations, or perhaps outside of the Islamic world, would be familiar with.

It makes me wonder, why classical standard Arabic, when the Torah/Tawrat, the Psalms/Zabur and the Gospels (Injil) would have been produced in Hebrew, Hebrew-Aramaic and Aramaic (if not Koine Greek) respectively - why then would Arabic be the only one that one could compose a surah like that of the Qur'an in?

Finally, there is the belief that anyone who attempts to produce a surah like one from the Qur'an will go to Hell -this is what a friend told me, but I don't know how widespread this belief is -- if it is widespread, then who in the right mind would attempt to produce one, fearing hellfire?

Finally, there is virtually nobody would be able to judge it impartially - if a non-Muslim were to say "This is easily equal to the Qur'an!" that would be insulting to the Muslims, and yet virtually no/almost no/no Muslim would really be able to say "This is equal to the Qur'an!" - not like I could blame them, as it's part of their religion that the Qur'an is unmatchable.

Invidentally, how many Muslims have actually checked out suralikeit.com already? And what do you make of them? What makes you believe they do not pass the test?

 

[YmirGF]

Well, for what it is worth, this is what Fatty had to say on the subject -- not that he/she/it is any kind of expert on anything, of course.

Response: It's not about writing a book in arabic. You can write it in any language you want. I've explained the specific miracle before. So once again, here it is as presented in another thread:


" It is a common response that everytime this challenge is stated, someone responds with something like, "can you produce something like Shakespere or a symphony like Beethoven? If not, does this mean that they are prophets of God?"

So before the thread is filled with those type of responses, let me explain further. The challenge is to produce a chapter "like" the qur'an. Therefore, it does not mean to simply write something in arabic and think you've accomplished something. What is the qur'an? Well what is any religous scripture? It is supposed to be inspiration from God. It's purpose is to inspire people to follow its teachings. So to produce a chapter like the qur'an means to produce a chapter as inspirational and as successful as the qur'an.

So what's the purpose of that? Well by doing so, you learn the miracle of the qur'an. And what is that miracle? The miracle is the following:
It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation.

This is the miracle of the qur'an. This is the miracle of Muhammad. This is a challenge for those who claim that the religion of islam is man made. Muhammad used a religion to inspired enough followers to conquer a nation. So to those who claim that this was the act of a man made religion, then why don't you do the same? Why don't you create your own religion and see how far you get? And when you do, you will fail. Not only will you will fail, you will fail miserably. Muhammad conquered Arabia. I guarantee you, you won't even be able to conquer your own neighborhood. And once you fail, you will be forced to ask yourself the question "why was it possible for Muhammad but impossible for me and anyone else?" That is when you will come to realize that it was the help of Allah that made it possible for Muhammad. Without Allah, even Muhammad would have failed. You disagree, the 1400+ year challenge still stands."

I do find the notion that "It is impossible for a person/s to create their own religion and use their made up religion to inspire enough followers to conquer a nation." is a fascinating part of the criteria. So, in short, if you don't get a pack of people following you that are fanatical enough to unseat your present government, you fail the challenge.
*Things that make you scratch your head, eh*

 

[kai]

its remarkable ,its like a spell , if you believe then you cant see it, its only when you lift the veil (pardon the pun) that you can see it for what it is.