the challenge of all religious views

[oae]

the relevant info is, if people fight religion, we just change sides to some idiocy that has no impact on history. ie woman rights, people lie and talk about how things suppose to be, which is what they need and then grow up and go away from parents angry and sad, cause either of them is not worth anything. so noone should take control of any kids and parents should be equal, but you can't do more than you able to. All this gives poor people the ability to hold onto right of freedom but end up transluding themselves into something that work against ethics.
celebrity creates all this. The worse poor has it, the worse the outcome is. Don't move your feet into battle please.

 

[Breathe]

Religion sucks across the board.

Even without religion, people would still suck. Seems like people just want a reason to fight. :/

 

[oae]

try mythology and you see your sexual needs, be jesus and god but also tao for relaxing. women and men are equal. it's all a human right to be the best you can. Hence i don't judge people for being people, but if they are fooled i will correct them. none is a demon who can't be coming back to senses.

 

[Cephus]

Even without religion, people would still suck. Seems like people just want a reason to fight. :/

Which may be true, but as I've said before, if you remove all of the irrational reasons that people can suck, at least you can address the rest intellectually, using logic and critical thinking. You can at least debate other reasons and try to find solutions. There are no solutions to "an imaginary friend in the sky said I should be a dick".

 

[Breathe]

Which may be true, but as I've said before, if you remove all of the irrational reasons that people can suck

Impossible.

 

[Cephus]

Impossible.

I don't think so. Lots of people reject irrationality.

 

[Breathe]

I don't think so. Lots of people reject irrationality.

But most, even atheists, usually have some irrational beliefs.

 

[Cephus]

But most, even atheists, usually have some irrational beliefs.

Which really has no effect on the ideal, getting rid of the irrational. No one is perfect. At least some people are trying.

 

[Breathe]

Which really has no effect on the ideal, getting rid of the irrational. No one is perfect. At least some people are trying.

A noble goal, and kudos. I consider myself a realist, though, personally; not an idealist.

Indeed, no-one is perfect; it's why I don't think blaming the acts of people on faiths is a rational act in itself.

So, perhaps we can start getting rid of the irrational by getting rid of the irrational hatred of the irrational held by some people who oppose what they deem as irrational in their so-called rationality...

... whilst at the same time getting rid of the irrationality of harming someone for daring to think differently based on a difference of opinion.

I'd like that.

 

[Cephus]

A noble goal, and kudos. I consider myself a realist, though, personally; not an idealist.

Everyone who has any goals is, by definition, an idealist. Anyone without goals is a failure.

Indeed, no-one is perfect; it's why I don't think blaming the acts of people on faiths is a rational act in itself.

Ultimately, everyone is to blame for their own actions, but people have different rationale for making particular actions and therefore, those rationale have to be examined and held to task as well, especially when those beliefs are being held up by a church or other organization as true. Yes, people are to blame, but people also push these religious concepts, when do we hold them accountable?

So, perhaps we can start getting rid of the irrational by getting rid of the irrational hatred of the irrational held by some people who oppose what they deem as irrational in their so-called rationality...

... whilst at the same time getting rid of the irrationality of harming someone for daring to think differently based on a difference of opinion.

I'd like that.

But there is no hatred, there is just the recognition that these views are irrational and bring along with them irrational actions and irrational beliefs. We already know that the religious are more likely to accept other irrational woo beliefs like ghosts and demons and alien abductions. While yes, people are entitled to their own opinions, they are absolutely not entitled to their own facts. The claims made in these religions are about the real world. It's not the same thing as having a preferred flavor of ice cream. People don't petition the government for special rights and privileges given to people who like vanilla over chocolate. They don't try to force schools to teach vanillaism. They don't go door-to-door preaching the benefits of vanilla ice cream. There are not hordes of vanilla ice cream fans murdering those who like chocolate. These are all things that happen in the name of religion.

 

[Breathe]

Everyone who has any goals is, by definition, an idealist.

I wouldn't consider that to be an idealist.

[Anyone without goals is a failure.

Though I agree with this.

Ultimately, everyone is to blame for their own actions, but people have different rationale for making particular actions and therefore, those rationale have to be examined and held to task as well, especially when those beliefs are being held up by a church or other organization as true. Yes, people are to blame, but people also push these religious concepts, when do we hold them accountable?

If your religion says "Do not kill", and someone kills in the name of the religion... well... that's not gonna fly.

But there is no hatred,

From you. And that is good.

We already know that the religious are more likely to accept other irrational woo beliefs like ghosts and demons and alien abductions.

And yet the most superstitious people I've met have been atheists. Environment is a big thing.

It's not the same thing as having a preferred flavor of ice cream. People don't petition the government for special rights and privileges given to people who like vanilla over chocolate. They don't try to force schools to teach vanillaism. They don't go door-to-door preaching the benefits of vanilla ice cream. There are not hordes of vanilla ice cream fans murdering those who like chocolate. These are all things that happen in the name of religion.

"Some people of X do things, so punish all people of X"?

 

[Cephus]

I wouldn't consider that to be an idealist.

They believe in things that have yet to come true, I certainly would.

[quote[If your religion says "Do not kill", and someone kills in the name of the religion... well... that's not gonna fly.[/quote]

Your religion really applies to nobody but yourself. There's a reason there are more than 42,000 distinct sects of Christianity, all of which believe different things.

And yet the most superstitious people I've met have been atheists. Environment is a big thing.

Luckily, there are plenty of peer-reviewed studies that show the opposite is true.

"Some people of X do things, so punish all people of X"?

Who is being punished? How are they being punished?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Religion is business - it is all about power, politics, greed and money and it is dirty - very dirty. Hopefully more and more people are realizing this. That the gods they portray Is/are not the true god(s).

Religion is religion. It was never a business to became with. It became a business later one when people had their own agenda and started twisting it to their ends. There's nothing inherently evil about religion. It wasn't some maniacal scheme devised by humans to control other humans. It was a way of life and communing with the divine no matter what shape it took.

 

[Cephus]

Religion is religion. It was never a business to became with. It became a business later one when people had their own agenda and started twisting it to their ends. There's nothing inherently evil about religion. It wasn't some maniacal scheme devised by humans to control l other humans. It was a way of life and communing with the divine no matter what shape it took.

It's always been a business, since the earliest days where shamans and priests got political and social power by peddling irrational beliefs. Nobody said that it was evil, just that it was false. There is no evidence to support it. It is irrational to believe it. It has always been a control scheme though.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

It's always been a business, since the earliest days where shamans and priests got political and social power by peddling irrational beliefs. Nobody said that it was evil, just that it was false. There is no evidence to support it. It is irrational to believe it. It has always been a control scheme though.

Absurd. There are many religions that never used it to usurp power or dominate others. There's nothing "false" about the divine. What cannot be explained can be experienced. We were very primitive and then all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, politics and religion? Do you think a very early human said "Yes I'm going to create the wheel, literature, temples and a religion with deities, even though I have no idea what these inventions do or how to make them, I have no idea what "civilization" is or what a deity is." How would it even know what any of this stuff was unless someone or something taught it?

People will just say "evolution" even though there have been creatures that have lived longer than humans ever did and they haven't evolved the way we have. There is no way people would be convinced to create statues and temples to deities that don't exist unless there was a force behind it. Why would people waste so much time giving so much dedication to deities that are made up? That doesn't make any sense. There's always have been stories of deities or giants that lived with humans. Have you ever heard that "we were made in God's image"? That whatever was on Earth taught us this and made us what we are? We didn't just magically learn this on our own. I believe they were on Earth and they even said they left at one point. I believe that's when people started using some religions for business. It never started out as a business to begin with and people will repeatedly say that it was a business as a reason to bash it. It's main purpose has always been to communicate and work with the divine, no matter what shape it took.

 

[morphesium]

Religion is religion. It was never a business to became with. It became a business later one when people had their own agenda and started twisting it to their ends. There's nothing inherently evil about religion. It wasn't some maniacal scheme devised by humans to control other humans. It was a way of life and communing with the divine no matter what shape it took.

It is business and power that nurtured all religions. God never made any religion. Religion is Evil or in other words, it is capable of turning other wise peaceful people to Evil people just like ISIS.

 

[Cephus]

Absurd. There are many religions that never used it to usurp power or dominate others. There's nothing "false" about the divine. What cannot be explained can be experienced. We were very primitive and then all of a sudden had a concept of civilization, money, politics and religion? Do you think a very early human said "Yes I'm going to create the wheel, literature, temples and a religion with deities, even though I have no idea what these inventions do or how to make them, I have no idea what "civilization" is or what a deity is." How would it even know what any of this stuff was unless someone or something taught it?

Of course they do! They come up with rules and regulations for their followers, they often insist on their follower's giving a sizeable percentage of their income, the whole of most modern religions is based around control. What you can wear, what you can eat, what you can do, what you can believe and where you can go and if you don't do what they want you to do, they back it up with threats from imaginary gods that will punish you, often in the afterlife where there's no way to tell if it ever happens. Whether they were designed that way or not, there's no denying that's how they are today and have been for thousands upon thousands of years.

And very early humans were ignorant of the world around them, they didn't understand how it worked, they invented gods to explain the things that they couldn't otherwise comprehend. Over the years, these god beliefs and many others have become organized and systematized into religions. Tales have been told about them, books have been written about them, specific rituals and ceremonies have been standardized, such that organized religions have become businesses. They have a business model. They operate by selling a "product". They expect people to pay them for said "product". Are you unaware of any of this?

 

[Breathe]

They believe in things that have yet to come true, I certainly would.

We have very different views.

Your religion really applies to nobody but yourself.

Not quite. Religion is about relationships.

There's a reason there are more than 42,000 distinct sects of Christianity, all of which believe different things.

Usually which are quite similar to each other. The differing use of language or type of music, or leanings on minor subjects are not really that important.

Luckily, there are plenty of peer-reviewed studies that show the opposite is true.

Experience has shown otherwise; I doubt we live in the same nation, and so ones in more religious countries tend to skew atheists as being more logical because they are more likely to reject things due to conscious belief, and so on. Atheists are not immune from being superstitious. I know, it sucks to know that atheists aren't all necessarily perfect beacons of rationality - but atheists are no different from theists: they can be equally superstitious, equally as good or bad. Haven't you ever met people?

It's also a little daft to reduce everything to studies in an attempt to avoid that the most superstitious people I've met have been atheists. Have there really been studies that say that the people I've met who have been atheists were not superstitious?

Who is being punished? How are they being punished?

*Facepalm*

 

[Cephus]

We have very different views.

Which doesn't mean both views are true.

Not quite. Religion is about relationships.

Only insofar as having imaginary friends as a child is about relationships. You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't actually exist and there is no evidence that any gods anywhere are real. I can have a relationship with my wife. Someone cannot have a relationship with their imaginary girlfriend in Canada. What it really is about is emotional comfort.

Usually which are quite similar to each other. The differing use of language or type of music, or leanings on minor subjects are not really that important.

Apparently it's important enough for these 42,000+ groups to differentiate themselves from each other. You might not find it important but wars have been fought over the minor doctrinal differences that you seem to take no notice of.

Experience has shown otherwise; I doubt we live in the same nation, and so ones in more religious countries tend to skew atheists as being more logical because they are more likely to reject things due to conscious belief, and so on. Atheists are not immune from being superstitious. I know, it sucks to know that atheists aren't all necessarily perfect beacons of rationality - but atheists are no different from theists: they can be equally superstitious, equally as good or bad. Haven't you ever met people?

So you'd rather take your own personal limited subjective experiences over peer-reviewed studies that have talked to thousands and thousands of people? Of course atheists are not immune to being superstitious, the only thing that atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. They share no other inherent commonalities. That doesn't stop the studies from showing a different conclusion than you've apparently come to.

It's also a little daft to reduce everything to studies in an attempt to avoid that the most superstitious people I've met have been atheists. Have there really been studies that say that the people I've met who have been atheists were not superstitious?

Because I'm not interested in your personal experiences, I'm interested in demonstrated facts, backed by solid methodology. You're welcome to be swayed by whatever you like.

*Facepalm*

I see you have no answer to the very simple questions. You claimed it was happening yet you fail to back it up.

 

[Breathe]

Which doesn't mean both views are true.

Indeed.

Only insofar as having imaginary friends as a child is about relationships.

>calling God an "imaginary thread"
Discussion dropped. That's just pathetic.

Apparently it's important enough for these 42,000+ groups to differentiate themselves from each other. You might not find it important but wars have been fought over the minor doctrinal differences that you seem to take no notice of.

>antitheists actually believe people have thought over the type of music in a church

So you'd rather take your own personal limited subjective experiences over peer-reviewed studies that have talked to thousands and thousands of people?

But I explained how it's opposite to what you're saying for me.
"Talked to" is a difference from being accurate, anyway. I can say I'm not superstitious at all as I cling to my horseshoe whilst pouring salt in a circle under a full moon to ward of bad luck.

Of course atheists are not immune to being superstitious, the only thing that atheists have in common is a lack of belief in gods. They share no other inherent commonalities.

Then we agree.

That doesn't stop the studies from showing a different conclusion than you've apparently come to.

Because I'm not interested in your personal experiences, I'm interested in demonstrated facts, backed by solid methodology. You're welcome to be swayed by whatever you like.

"I dimiss your experiences because they don't match up with my cognitive bias"?

I see you have no answer to the very simple questions. You claimed it was happening yet you fail to back it up.

The overzealous forms of pushing religion away from being seen in public, idiots like Dawkins saying children should be 'protected' from religion because it's child abuse, and so on, all justified because 'some religious people do bad things'. For a start.

I didn't fail to back it up. You failed to research.