I would agree that secular education along with the lack of religion's inability or refusal to accept and move forward has created real doubt in religious claims as absolute truth.
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The changing demographics of Christianity in recent times - What does it all really mean?
- Thread starter Dawnofhope
- Start date
I would agree that secular education along with the lack of religion's inability or refusal to accept and move forward has created real doubt in religious claims as absolute truth.
Sirona
Hindu Wannabe
I'm no expert in American history, but didn't the whole East Asian religions / New Age / hippie dippie thing originate or begin to prosper in the U.S. ?
Christianity started as a minority faith, a faith that celebrated and welcomed those on the "fringe" or in second-class status in society. Assuming a position of political power and dominance has never been a good look for it. Perhaps becoming a regional or global minority would actually help Christianity return to its ethical and spiritual roots.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I've heard of a church that had 1,000 attendees before COVID-19 and 50,000 online during the crisis. A friend offered Easter by preaching on his lawn at home and 42 came to the service outside, listening along the fence while social distancing, despite showing an avoidance of Christianity prior. Revival is coming!
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
I agree. When people become aware of their own mortality, they tend to get religious. But I hope you'd agree that that alone is not a good reason to believe that the religions are true. Just because something gives comfort doesn't mean it's true.
If I had to guess, it seems consistent with some positive changes in society.
Not too long ago, people would pay a heavy social cost for not being observant Christians. Your church was the place where you made the social connections that let you get a job, find sales leads, meet a spouse, etc. Not participating in religious life meant shutting yourself out of those opportunities.
As society becomes more pluralistic, people can access opportunity without being part of the dominant religion, whether they're members of minority religions or no religion at all. I see this as a good thing.
... but it also takes away some of the incentive to participate in church life as a Christian. As it becomes less and less the case that, say, the success of your business depends on going to church on Sunday, some people won't see going to church as worth the cost in time any more.
As these social benefits and advantages go away, I think we'll find that only the people who see religious life as worthwhile for its own sake. There are certainly people like this around, so I don't think we'll ever see Christianity disappear completely.
That being said, there will certainly be some heartache among the members who are left.
A lot of churches have been set up in a way that counts on the revenue stream from the tithes of much more than the "true believers" who are left. I don't think that New Zealand is going to be exempt from the worldwide trend of parish churches closing and being converted to other uses.
I think there will be definitely Christians in the New Zealand in the future. Whether there will be enough Christians to sustain the sorts of churches they want in the numbers they want at the levels of tithing they're used to... that I'm not sure of.
Absolutely not. It is just a catalyst to faith in God that drives you to find out truth.
Alcohol can give some people comfort but it is hardly "truth".... now Jesus.....
Jesus won't give you a hangover after the comfort.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
Absolutely not. It is just a catalyst to faith in God that drives you to find out truth.
Alcohol can give some people comfort but it is hardly "truth".... now Jesus.....
View attachment 39894
Jesus won't give you a hangover after the comfort.
"Two great European narcotics, alcohol and Christianity."
-Nietzsche
LOL!!
One with hangover and repercussions...
The other joy unspeakable and full of glory.
Skwim
Veteran Member
.
Q.The changing demographics of Christianity in recent times - What does it all really mean?
A. Christianity is quickly becoming irrelevant in the lives of younger people.
"People turn to Christianity for answers, but most leave empty-handed. Instead of a solution, they find a religion that has, on one side, abused its power, and on the other side is spineless and powerless. In its effort to remain standing the teaching has lost direction and clarity. Christianity has lost its backbone. Christianity has become irrelevant."
source
.
Q.The changing demographics of Christianity in recent times - What does it all really mean?
A. Christianity is quickly becoming irrelevant in the lives of younger people.
"People turn to Christianity for answers, but most leave empty-handed. Instead of a solution, they find a religion that has, on one side, abused its power, and on the other side is spineless and powerless. In its effort to remain standing the teaching has lost direction and clarity. Christianity has lost its backbone. Christianity has become irrelevant."
source
.
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What do you mean by "christian"? Is it Catholic or other denomination? I've been to New Zealand, but I don't remember anything about the religious background of the country.
Anyway, people adhere to things that they find somehow valuable. If most so called christian denominations are losing ground, that's because people no longer find them relevant. That comes from the evolution of lifestyles and education, but also because many religions caused more bad then good in society and that made people see them as a negative influence, rather than something positive that adds value to their lives. I think the numbers are only going to get lower in the near future.
That was an incredible read, and very helpful towards understanding the history of this. Science is viewed as bad by association with secularism, an unfortunate victim in that battle.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Christianity has a wide variety of Creeds, churches and cultures. Those that focus upon love and understanding, or good deeds, or charity seem to be surviving around the UK. But Christian extremism is so horrible that this could be the bad face that might cause so many to push it all away.
We don't mention other forums here, but if you visit some extreme ones as a lurker then that should be enough of a shock ...... One ran a thread asking its members of they would support the death penalty for homosexuals and a huge % voted for this. Another thread asked how many would like Mecca to be attacked with a nuclear device and again, the proposal won the day. I think hard-line hateful versions of Christianity are doing the damage. I will not source this, cannot here.
Education methods have changed dramatically over the last 50 years, from "this is how it is" rote learning to "if you don't understand ask" enquiry. Pupils have learned to question.
Also the rise of the internet has provided unlimited information, a boon to an enquiring mind.
There is also the fact that, in most countries, atheists are no longer executed for heresy. Without that threat hanging over people they can be more honest.
And then we get peer pressure, doing what your friends do.
No doubt there are more reasons for the decline in Christianity.
Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
The decline means that there are less people turning to Jesus Christ. That is a problem for the world, but not a problem with God.
Decline in the Scripture seems to occur when there is an end of one age and the beginning of another. Just like with Noah. He was the last righteous man on earth. Pretty good decline there.
And when this Church age ends, it will be in decline also as God gets ready to initiate a new age.
These declines work hand in hand with what God is doing.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Decline in the Scripture seems to occur when there is an end of one age and the beginning of another. Just like with Noah. He was the last righteous man on earth. Pretty good decline there.
And when this Church age ends, it will be in decline also as God gets ready to initiate a new age.
These declines work hand in hand with what God is doing.
Good-Ole-Rebel
I have a couple of friends who studied philosophy while I was studying medicine. We had some great conversations and I had came across Nietzsche when studying the history of Western music at university. He had been an influence on Anton Weber, and Nietzsche had in turn been influenced by Wagner.
I’ve never formally studied philosophy but enjoy reading about the lives of anyone of influence. Your point about Nietzsche is well taken. Regardless of the origins, the idea that religion would inevitably die out was common place in the nineteenth century as it is now. It clearly hasn’t come to pass and is unlikely to anytime soon, if ever.
As I understand it, over 90% of New Zealanders identified with Christianity before WWI. We are a young nation and part of the British Empire as with Australia. Most of the Europeans who colonised New Zealand were Christian and the majority of Maori converted.
Serving the British Empire in the two world wars was the first time we had been to battle as a nation, so we were eager to test our nationhood in this manner and extend our allegiance to such a great and noble empire. The experience was that of a loss of innocence as idealism quickly evaporated with the horrors of war. Most towns in NZ have monuments to the “glorious dead” as the nations psyche was scarred in much the same way as the Europeans.
The post war era was a time of rebuilding and prosperity but conservative ideals were challenged and broken down through the 60s and 70s. Perhaps Christians believed there would be a Christian revival of sorts that would stem the tide but with the proportion of Christians now in the mid 30s and still rapidly declining, few are expecting the tide to turn anytime soon.
I’ve often heard that the American Vietnam war experience had similarities to WWII for Europe. America lost this war and its ideals and values challenged though not nearly to the same extent as Europe through the ‘Great War.’ So in that sense America’s decline of Christianity could be following that of Europe and Australasia but delayed by a few decades.
Upon rereading my post, I fear I may have made my point rather insensitively. Or at least, it may have come across that way. What I was trying to convey -- and probably failed abysmally to do so -- is how easy it is to misunderstand Nietzsche. Even good students taking graduate level seminars in Nietzsche can be confused by Nietzsche's phrase, "God is dead". Nietzsche was that rarest of philosophers. Like Plato and very few others, he could write well. But he overly-relied on empathetic arguments. Arguments presented not as appeals to reason, but as appeals to 'empathy'. They are legitimate arguments. No logicians declare them to be fallacious. But they have their limitations. Not everyone 'gets' them. The seminar student was a case in point of a bright, informed person simply not 'getting' an empathetic argument. That's why I -- and some others -- were so embarrassed for him. We liked him, we respected him, we thought well of him. I myself could imagine I was in his shoes. I think the others could too.
I agree. The notion seems to have gotten its start and to have flourished in the nineteenth century. Which is perhaps why it seems to strike both of us as "so nineteenth century". I figure it would take us evolving into a new species for religion to die out among us. That is, I think it has roots in our genes.
I can only speculate too.
But it may start with the end of WW2, the coming of the pill and women's lib (from the 1950s) and the growth of challenge to male authority, the rise of TV making the home the center of entertainment, the coming of instant communications (cell-phone, net, cameras) speeding the collapse of the old centers of social authority (the press, churches, politicians), the churches' three-decades-long harakiri as they failed and failed and failed to face up to child abuse; and the rise of education and a worldview based on scientific expectation and understanding have all been involved.
I don't think any of that is new, but it's how it looks to me.