The Christian idea about Two natures?

[F0uad]

Before i ask my questions and enter a discussion in whoever wants to reply i want to say that i mean no disrespect towards Christianity nor am i trying to attack it.

My question is how does the Two natures of Jesuss(pbuh) actually works?

Each time i hear the argument that Jesus(pbuh) was fully God and fully Human at the same time i feel
confused and i get the assumption it is a argument based on no scriptural references and contradicts with basic logic and reasoning.

Let me give you a example: Human-beings are humans, animals are animals. If a man became a duck he wouldn't be longer a man but a duck. An another example the frog prince, the princess who kissed the frog who then becomes a prince well now he is no longer a frog but something different a prince. So basically if God becomes a man or a incarnate man then god is now a man and he isn't god anymore because they are two different distinct beings.

Now did i miss something? Or is there a explanation on how it could work..

 

[Desert Snake]

Before i ask my questions and enter a discussion in whoever wants to reply i want to say that i mean no disrespect towards Christianity nor am i trying to attack it.

My question is how does the Two natures of Jesuss(pbuh) actually works?

Each time i hear the argument that Jesus(pbuh) was fully God and fully Human at the same time i feel
confused and i get the assumption it is a argument based on no scriptural references and contradicts with basic logic and reasoning.

Let me give you a example: Human-beings are humans, animals are animals. If a man became a duck he wouldn't be longer a man but a duck. An another example the frog prince, the princess who kissed the frog who then becomes a prince well now he is no longer a frog but something different a prince. So basically if God becomes a man or a incarnate man then god is now a man and he isn't god anymore two different distinct beings.

Now did i miss something? Or is there a explanation on how it could work..

My theory is that people who don't understand it aren't meant to, most likely, and that is o.k.. AFAIK all Abrahamic faiths worship the same God, so it probably shouldn't be a problem.

 

[F0uad]

My theory is that people who don't understand it aren't meant to, most likely, and that is o.k.. AFAIK all Abrahamic faiths worship the same God, so it probably shouldn't be a problem.

So i cannot understand it but a Christian can? How does that make sense... sorry i lost you there?

 

[Desert Snake]

So i cannot understand it but a Christian can? How does that make sense... sorry i lost you there?

That's the thing, i'm not sure if you can't understand it, but those of us who can don't seem conflicted with the idea. This is similar to the trinity concept, which Christians also understand, ( i'd hope so, as many churches support this idea).
Jesus= God and man........incidentally, you probably know this, but Jesus also referred to himself as the "son of man" at least once...
Perhaps someone with a good theological vocabulary can explain it sufficiently.

 

[F0uad]

That's the thing, i'm not sure if you can't understand it, but those of us who can don't seem conflicted with the idea. This is similar to the trinity concept, which Christians also understand, ( i'd hope so, as many churches support this idea).
Jesus= God and man........incidentally, you probably know this, but Jesus also referred to himself as the "son of man" at least once...
Perhaps someone with a good theological vocabulary can explain it sufficiently.

I know, lets hope so

 

[oldbadger]

Each time i hear the argument that Jesus(pbuh) was fully God and fully Human at the same time i feel
confused and i get the assumption it is a argument based on no scriptural references and contradicts with basic logic and reasoning.

Hello F0uad!

I don't think that Jesus said he was God. I think he was a prophet, or messenger. Lots of proper Christians don't think Jesus was God either, and they belong to Unitarian churches, rather than Trinitarian churches.

Of course, if somebody could show anything from Matthew, Mark or Luke that reports Jesus as claiming a Godhead, that would be interesting. But they would more likely quote from Paul's drivvle, or the convert John's attempt at truth.

 

[Sleeppy]

God is Spirit; the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Strength - over angels, demons, elements, and death - then hasn't God given much of Himself? To a Son? An inheritance? And as we know, Jesus always followed the Father's Will. We have here the Strength and the Will of God. Both are God, in the Son, Jesus. First over angels, and like the Firstborn of men, doing no sin.

 

[Muffled]

God is Spirit; the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is Jesus' Strength - over angels, demons, elements, and death - then hasn't God given much of Himself? To a Son? An inheritance? And as we know, Jesus always followed the Father's Will. We have here the Strength and the Will of God. Both are God, in the Son, Jesus. First over angels, and like the Firstborn of men, doing no sin.

In a sense this helps to answer his question. I believe the Spirit when it is in the body is still spirit it doesn't change into flesh and flesh does not change into spirit. The mind which is part of the flesh has one nature and The Spirit which dwells conected to the flesh has a different nature.

 

[F0uad]

In a sense this helps to answer his question. I believe the Spirit when it is in the body is still spirit it doesn't change into flesh and flesh does not change into spirit. The mind which is part of the flesh has one nature and The Spirit which dwells conected to the flesh has a different nature.

So again your saying two natures?

 

[Muffled]

So again your saying two natures?

I don't believe it can be viewed any other way considering the Biblical record.

 

[F0uad]

I don't believe it can be viewed any other way considering the Biblical record.

Can you show me how it is biblical? Could you also take a look on the OP and explain how it works..
Since i tried every argument to tackle my own statement but in the end i keep failing.

 

[Kemble]

Hey F0aud,

It's not exactly a very difficult concept. If you go to fatherzakaria.net (you can also go to the Arabic version), click on "books" and under "books about Islam" the 6th file titled "The Christ Son of God" goes into detail on it. I'll quote a few.

Fortunately our ancestor saints explained this in a wonderful example saying that; this union is similar to the union of a peace of iron with fire, ( when a piece of iron is put in a fire) as by such union the iron unites with fire without mixing with it, so neither the iron nor the fire changes in its nature or mix with the other , meaning that the iron doesn’t become a fire & the fire doesn’t become an iron but they are in union without mixing, so the fire united with the iron keeping its nature can burn , in the same time the iron unites with fire keeping its nature can be hammered & remodeled.

On that scale the revelation of God in the body of the Christ is similar to the revelation of fire in the iron as the divine nature is united with human nature without any mixing or mingling of either of these two natures & without any change so neither the divine nature became human nor the human nature became divine

This is our faith in the Christ who is "God incarnated in human"
It may be difficult for non Christians to understand or accept this but for our muslim brothers there is a common ground between us, the muslim can realize simply this fact & the common ground here I mean is the God revelation to Prophet Moses in a bush burned with fire in the desert & God was talking to him through this bush, this story was mentioned in every detail in the holy bible & also in the quran.

I will mention this story here from the holy bible & in the next chapter I will mention it as written in the quran

We read in Exodus 3:1-6 (Now Moses was keeping the flock of Jethro, his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the back of the wilderness, and came to God's mountain, to Horeb. The angel of the lord appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and beholds, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. Moses said, "I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt." When God saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the midst of the bush, and said, "Moses! Moses!" He said, "Here I am." He said, "Don't come close. Take your sandals off of your feet, for the place you are standing on is holy ground.” Moreover he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God...)

By reading this chapter of the holy bible, God appeared to Moses in a bush turned in fire & he told him frankly I am the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob and Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God

The same story was mentioned in the quran & as there are lot of quran verses & muslim scholars utterances explaining how God reveals himself in a substance or person let us go together through this to verify by ourselves if this is true or not

He opens the second chapter for the Muslim perspective.

The testimony of Islam for the fact that the Christ is God embodied in human body

We mentioned in the previous chapter that we as christens believe that Christ is God embodied in human body & we postponed explaining the Islamic answer to the critical question: It is possible that God embodied in human body?

Someone may say this is strange & impossible from the Islamic point of view

Dear honest reader who is honest in your motivations , honest with yourself & seeking the truth without temperament , let us see what the quran & the great Islamic scholars said about this issue

Now to get to the meat of it.

When we read the story of Prophet Moses in the Story chapter (Surat al-Qasas), Ta Ha chapter (Surat Ta Ha) & he Ants chapter (Surat An-Naml) we can see that God revealed to Moses in a tree:

1-The Story Chapter (Surat Al-Qasas) 29-30:

( So when Moses had fulfilled the term and was travelling with his family, he saw a fire in the direction of the tur (the tur Mountain). He said to his family, wait; I have seen a fire. Perhaps I may bring to you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that you may warm yourselves. So when he reached to it (the fire),he was called from the right of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree: O Moses, Verify I am Allah (God), the Lord of all Being.)'
As you see here the voice came from the blessed place from the tree
This subject was more clarified in:
2- Ta-Ha Chapter (Surat Ta-Ha) 8-13:
( you received the story of Moses? When he saw a fire, and said to his family, 'Wait verify; I have seen a fire. Perhaps I can bring you some burning brand thereform, or find some guidance at the fire.& When he came to it(the fire),he was called by name,O 'Moses, Verify I am your Lord; so take off your shoes;you are in the sacred valley,Tuwa.( then name of the valley)
This subject was more clarified in:


3- The Ants Chapter (Surat An-Naml)7-9 :
( When Moses said to his household verify 'I have seen a fire, I will bring you from there some information, or I will bring you a burning brand, that you may warm yourselves.' But when, he came to it, he was called: 'Blessed is whosoever is in the fire, and whosoever is around it & Glorified be God, the Lord of all Being! Moses, verify, it is I, Allah (God), the All-mighty, the All-wise. )
from these verses it is obvious that God revealed himslf to Moses in a tree & spoke to him saying I am God, the Lord of all Being ( in *The Story chapter ) & ordered him to take off his shoes for he is in the holy valley,Towa (the valley which became sared by the revealation of God in it), then he confirmed the same thing to him saying I am God; there is no God but I (Ta Ha chapter ) & in The Ants chapter he said 'Blessed is he who is in the fire, and he who is about it & it is I, God, the All-mighty, the All-wise
Let me ask you a simple question who is the speaker in these verses ?
Actually ,I asked an islamic scholar this question & after a long thinking he replied by: Moses imagined that God spoke to him from the tree
Then I asked him to mention the poof from the veres to his saying that Moses imagined that God spoke to him , he gave no answer , then I asked him gently & polietly about the confirmation patterns in the arabic language as he is one of the specialists in this language
I mean by confirmation patterns ,if we want to confirm something what are the expressions we us to confirm the correctness of this subject ?
He wisely asked me to answer this question, I told him in the arabic language the confirmation patterns as I remember are;
1)The confirmation by using )I am & it is I) which was mentioned in the three chapters mentioned before In the Story chapter: I am, Allah (God), In Ta Ha chapter : I am the Lordin The Ants chapter : it is I, ,Allah (God),
2)The confirmation by repeating the word wheather it is a noun or pronoun & that pattern was also used in these verses :In The Story chapter: I am , Allah (God), the Lord of all Being, In Ta Ha chapter : I am the Lord & I am Allah (God),In The Ants chapter: it is I, Allah (God), the All-mighty, the All-wise.
3)-The confirmation by exclusion : By excluding the meaning on one person & no one else, this was also used in Ta Ha chapter as he said : I am , Allah (God),; there is no god but I
So it is very obvious by all avialable confirmation patterns that the one who was speaking to Moses was God himself
From here we came to the second question which is the most important :
From where did this voice heard by Moses come ?
Definetely no one can denay that the voice came from the tree & preciesly from a specific spot as mentioned in the Story chapter(So when he reached to it(the fire),he was called from the right of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree: : O Moses, Verify I am Allah (God), the Lord of all Being.)'
From all mentioned above we realized that God himself revealed to Moses in a substance (a tree) & he spoke to him from that tree
So drear, if God revealed himself in a tree Is it a disbelieving to say that God embodied in human body & spoke through it & it is well known that human is superior to the plant kingdom in the order of the living creatures.

He further goes into testimony from Islamic scholars and also touches on the Trinity supported in the Quran but I recommend reading the entire file and let me know if it still makes sense.

 

[Falvlun]

I think it is a rather difficult concept to wrap your mind around. I can understand the Trinity, but how someone could be fully God and fully human seems impossible. All analogies I can think of only allow Jesus to be part human, or partially God, but not fully both.

I was thinking of a man in a duck costume. God could theorectically make a perfect "human" costume, and put it on, but he'd still be fully God beneath the costume. The the problem with that is that even if you were a human in a perfect duck costume, you wouldn't have the mind of a duck, which ostensibly is an important aspect of a duck. Likewise, God in a perfect human costume wouldn't have the mind of a human, and thus, fail to be fully human.

 

[Kemble]

Falvlum,

Have you read my first quoted analogy on iron and fire? Maybe another analogy would be light (spirit of God) shining through a glass of water (human body, Christ). Each keep their properties intact, yet each inseparable and the interaction focuses the light just as in Christianity where Christ is the embodiment or focus of the Word of God to humanity.

 

[savagewind]

To believe Mary was impregnated with the seed of Christ by The Holy Spirit is to believe Jesus(pbuh) was not "fully human". I believe it. Why shouldn't I? He was human though because he suffered in the flesh like any human would. I believe he also had choice in the mind like every human has. I imagine it was a daily struggle for the man Jesus(pbuh) to do his own will and to speak his own words or to be used by The Holy Father for the will of the Holy Father. I do not imagine he was formed with no personal identity. He always chose the Father's Will. I believe it.

It is not The Holy Spirit that made him god man imo. When the Holy Spirit becomes our helper we do not become gods.

 

[Falvlun]

Falvlum,

Have you read my first quoted analogy on iron and fire?

Sorry, I tend to skip over posts that feature a lot of quoted text.

I'm not a huge fan of the iron and fire analogy. The fire affects the iron by its heat, but the actual fire and the iron never comingle to become one entity. You could argue, I suppose, that the heat absorbs into the iron (iron gets hot), and that hot iron is one entity, but it doesn't really explain something of two different natures becoming one entity while still maintaining full characteristics of each. I mean, it would sort of be like claiming that the color "red" maintains a separate and distinct nature from the cherry.

As for the God inhabiting the burning bush to speak with Moses, I don't think that really follows either. Are you saying that God was fully bush? And if you are, then that's not correct either, because bushes burn when put on fire, and this bush was not consumed, thus, it was not "fully bush".

Maybe another analogy would be light (spirit of God) shining through a glass of water (human body, Christ). Each keep their properties intact, yet each inseparable and the interaction focuses the light just as in Christianity where Christ is the embodiment or focus of the Word of God to humanity.

Your analogies focus on something affecting, or basically just touching something else. They really don't describe something that is one entity. For example, I put a collar on my dog. My dog is not changed by the collar, and the collar is not changed by the dog, and yet they are now together. Does that make them one single entity that is fully collar and fully dog?

Or, for a more Biblical example, the Bible speaks of God working through many different people, like David or Moses. His "light" is shining through them. Does that make David or Moses fully God and fully human?

 

[ChristineES]

We believe that when Jesus walked with His apostles, that He was a full human being. And that He is 100% God when returned to His Kingdom. Confusing, yep.

 

[Kemble]

His "light" is shining through them. Does that make David or Moses fully God and fully human?

I think ChristineES explained it pretty good. You're gonna have to dig through Biblical and Quranic scriptures that mention God's influence on the world through his Spirit and Word, in which case Christ would be the full (final, pure) manifestation of his Word in our human reality and with his virgin birth it starts to put itself together. As a side note his Spirit is embodied in the Holy Spirit of the Trinity, so we have the Father (God), the Son (his Word), and the Holy Spirit (his Spirit). Simple enough yet folks over complicate it.

 

[Awoon]

We believe that when Jesus walked with His apostles, that He was a full human being. And that He is 100% God when returned to His Kingdom. Confusing, yep.

If it only takes a belief in a story, then everyone is full human being and 100% God after death.

 

[Shiranui117]

The union of the Two Natures of Christ, one human and one Divine, is typically expressed in the term "Hypostatic Union." Jesus Christ is a Person in two natures, and these two natures are not confused, mixed or separated; each keeps what is proper to its own nature, yet the two are unified in the one Person of Christ. What does this mean?

According to Orthodox theology, God is "ineffable, inconceivable, incomprehensible, ever-existing yet ever the same." (From the Liturgy of St. John of Chrysostom) This mean that God's nature--the Divine Nature shared by Father, Son and Holy Spirit--will never change.

When God the Son became incarnate of the Theotokos (Mother of God) and Ever-Virgin Mary, He took on a human body, a human soul, and a human will. At the Incarnation, Christ took on the fullness of human nature He walked this earth with us, ate the food that we ate, slept the way we slept, talked the way we talked, etc, etc. He was fully human. But He was still fully God at the same time.

Jesus also faced every temptation that we as humans face, and when He suffered death on the Cross, He even experienced the separation from God that came with death. Once Christ had suffered death on the Cross, not only did He share in the fullness of human nature, but He also shared in the fullness of the human experience, except for sin.

After His Resurrection, Christ let His Divinity shine through His humanity--this is why the Apostles were unable to recognize Him at first, because His body had been glorified. This had happened once before, at the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor.

Christ also had both the human and divine wills, yet these two did not deviate from each other, unlike our sin-tainted human wills deviating from God's will. When Christ prayed at Gethsemane, He said, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from me; yet not My will, but Yours, be done." (Luke 22:42) Here we see Christ's human will is showing fear at the prospect of death on the Cross. Yet despite this fear, His human will conforms to His Divine will in assenting to the Father's plan for our redemption.

At the Incarnation, Christ was fully God and fully man. At His Death, He was fully God and fully man. While He was dead, He was fully God and fully man. At His Resurrection, Christ was fully God and fully man. At His Ascension, Christ was fully God and fully man. Today, Christ is fully God and fully man.

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask