The Christian idea about Two natures?

[Conståntine]

John 21:6 is the Father speaking, not Jesus.

Context helps, as well as reading the preceding verses. Jesus and the Father take turns speaking all throughout Revelation as two clearly different, separate beings, and it's important to know who is speaking and when before you try making the case.

I'm glad you said that. Now follow along carefully:


Revelation of John 1:8: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation of John 1:9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation of John 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation of John 1:11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation of John 1:12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation of John 1:13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation of John 1:14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation of John 1:15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation of John 1:16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Revelation of John 1:17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation of John 1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Well, NOW it's in its proper context. And what do you know - it's all Jesus speaking, except where John narrated. And please don't tell me about some angel, demon, or sports broadcaster interjecting either.

 

[Shermana]

First off, I said that the Alpha and Omega in 1:11 in the KJV is spurious,

(Though 1:11 contains a clearly spurious "Alpha and Omega" in the KJV and some others that is not in the manuscripts)

it doesn't even appear in the Manuscripts, that's why almost all Translations omit it. Did you read what I said there or just ignore it before posting that?

http://www.revelation-today.com/Ch1-Alpha.htm

Even traditionalist Trinitarians who otherwise take your position on Revelation understand this:

However, Revelation 1:11 probably is not authentic, so that reduces it to three times.

As for being the "First and the Last", that title is not exclusive to God like Alpha and Omega is, for Jesus is the "Firstborn of Creation" and the "last Adam".

Trust me, I've been through every single one of these numerous times. Read the article I linked. I'll be back in a few hours. And please don't bother insisting that the Alpha and Omega of 1:11 is authentic unless you really want to get into the manuscripts.

 

[Shermana]

One of these things is not like the other.....

Rev 1:11


New International Version (©1984)
which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."
New Living Translation (©2007)
It said, "Write in a book everything you see, and send it to the seven churches in the cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

English Standard Version (©2001)
saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea."

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

International Standard Version (©2012)
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Which said, “Those things which you have seen, write in a book and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesaus, to Zmurna, to Pergamaus, to Thawatyra, to Sardis, to Philadelphia and to Laidiqia.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
saying, "Write on a scroll what you see, and send it to the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

American King James Version
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What you see, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

American Standard Version
saying, What thou seest, write in a book and send it to the seven churches: unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Saying: What thou seest, write in a book, and send to the seven churches which are in Asia, to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamus, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

Darby Bible Translation
saying, What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies: to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.

English Revised Version
saying, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it to the seven churches; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamum, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

 

[Conståntine]

First off, I said that the Alpha and Omega in 1:11 in the KJV is spurious,

Well that's a shame then, in addition to my 1569, I guess I need to toss my Louis Segond (I don't use French too much nowadays anyway), my Latin Vulgate bible, and I suppose my Hebrew New Testament translation can go out the window as well. Bummer....

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it doesn't even appear in the Manuscripts, that's why almost all Translations omit it. Did you read what I said there or just ignore it before posting that?

I did. I'm a very good reader. And I was moved by none of it. You can go on for days about how it doesn't appear in this manuscript, that manuscript, and the latest edition of Archie Comics that came out last Friday. At the end of the day, my bibles say what they say, and your remonstrations based on extra-biblical writings and your personal opinion(s) are of no importance to myself. I would prefer scriptures to back up your claims. [/QUOTE]


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As for being the "First and the Last", that title is not exclusive to God like Alpha and Omega is, for Jesus is the "Firstborn of Creation" and the "last Adam".

So the spurious Alpha and Omega title is exclusive to God??


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Trust me, I've been through every single one of these numerous times. Read the article I linked.

I'm not impressed, unless you have some scriptural evidence to back your claims up.

 

[Shermana]

]Well that's a shame then, in addition to my 1569, I guess I need to toss my Louis Segond (I don't use French too much nowadays anyway), my Latin Vulgate bible, and I suppose my Hebrew New Testament translation can go out the window as well. Bummer....

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It's definitely worth noting how many translations rely on spurious verses to support the doctrine, probably due to placate their particular market share.

I did. I'm a very good reader. And I was moved by none of it.

Whether you are moved or not is not my concern. I'm simply here to show everyone reading the facts as well as the unwillingness of others on the other side of the argument to accept them.

You can go on for days about how it doesn't appear in this manuscript, that manuscript, and the latest edition of Archie Comics that came out last Friday.

Comparing Manuscripts to Archie comics ain't gonna move me and probably won't score you any points with anyone else. Would you even be able to discuss why your particular manuscript versions is superior to the others?

At the end of the day, my bibles say what they say, and your remonstrations based on extra-biblical writings and your personal opinion(s) are of no importance to myself.

Thank you for sharing your total disdain for scholarship and manuscript evidence.

I would prefer scriptures to back up your claims.

Which claims exactly? You've basically said you refuse to accept any bibles based on other manuscript versions so how are we to resolve this?


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So the spurious Alpha and Omega title is exclusive to God??

The title is exclusive to God, the spurious verse is in 1:11 exclusively.


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I'm not impressed, unless you have some scriptural evidence to back your claims up.

Which claims in particular do you want scripture to back, and would you even accept different versions of the scripture than the ones you go by in the first place or would you call them "Extracanonical writings" as if the only canon that exists is the translation and set of manuscripts you go by?

 

[F0uad]

Falvlum,

Have you read my first quoted analogy on iron and fire? Maybe another analogy would be light (spirit of God) shining through a glass of water (human body, Christ). Each keep their properties intact, yet each inseparable and the interaction focuses the light just as in Christianity where Christ is the embodiment or focus of the Word of God to humanity.

Comparing individualism, persons and minds with material objects is just stupidity (with all respect). Also your whole message about that Islam is in favor of the trinity is laughable since it clearly says:

Surah 4:171: People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.

Surah 5:71-75
hose who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.

Surah 5:116
And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

How more clear can you be?

Back to the topic:

I am not sure why people are mixing my questions with the trinity or are posting verses. The only thing i am asking is this while using logic and reasoning:

How can god be a man while being perfect in knowledge and hes other attributes that adhere to god alone. If a god does not have these attributes anymore (limited) in a way then he lost hes god"ship". Its the same as saying a Human can be a duck and human on the same time it makes no sense they are two different distinct beings with both different traits, being intelligent, being a mammal and so forth.

So again my question remains how can God be a human when this human-body limits him? If a god is limited then he is no longer god...

 

[Shermana]

Good point Fouad, Jesus did not know the day or the hour, and Revelation 1:1 says that Jesus received his revelation from God. This means there are things that Jesus did not know but had to be informed of by the Father, who was obviously a separate being. Jesus also asked God to "take this cup from me if you will", meaning he tried to get out of fulfilling his painful destiny on the cross. Understandable but still seemingly cowardly for the incarnation of the Great most high god himself.

 

[Desert Snake]

Good point Fouad, Jesus did not know the day or the hour, and Revelation 1:1 says that Jesus received his revelation from God. This means there are things that Jesus did not know but had to be informed of by the Father, who was obviously a separate being. Jesus also asked God to "take this cup from me if you will", meaning he tried to get out of fulfilling his painful destiny on the cross. Understandable but still seemingly cowardly for the incarnation of the Great most high god himself.

So.. you do/don't believe in the divine nature of Jesus?

 

[Shermana]

So.. you do/don't believe in the divine nature of Jesus?

As I mentioned before, the word "Divine" is not exclusive to THE god but also "divine beings" who are angels. The problem is that many assume the word "Divine" to exclusively apply to THE god, the Father, when it does in fact also apply to the "Divine beings" who are the gods, of whom God is the "god of the gods".

Psalm 29:1, Common English Bible:

1 You, divine beings! Give to the LORD— give to the LORD glory and power! 2 Give to the LORD the glory due his name! Bow down to the LORD in holy splendor! 3

So yes, Jesus is "Divine" in that he's the incarnation of "Wisdom", the "Logos", who is the Firstborn of Creation of whom all things were made THROUGH (not "by" as in originated but "through" as in the vehicle/means). This does not mean however that he is the Father incarnated or an equal god as the Father or some "person" of some Pleroma of 3 gods.

It simply means he's the incarnation of a celestial/divine being, i.e. the Highest of the Angels, a Created Spiritual Being that is higher than all the others.

 

[F0uad]

Well one can just ask himself why call someone else a son or a father if they are the same being.. it makes no sense

 

[Desert Snake]

As I mentioned before, the word "Divine" is not exclusive to THE god but also "divine beings" who are angels. The problem is that many assume the word "Divine" to exclusively apply to THE god, the Father, when it does in fact also apply to the "Divine beings" who are the gods, of whom God is the "god of the gods".

Psalm 29:1, Common English Bible:

1 You, divine beings! Give to the LORD— give to the LORD glory and power! 2 Give to the LORD the glory due his name! Bow down to the LORD in holy splendor! 3

So yes, Jesus is "Divine" in that he's the incarnation of "Wisdom", the "Logos", who is the Firstborn of Creation of whom all things were made THROUGH (not "by" as in originated but "through" as in the vehicle/means). This does not mean however that he is the Father incarnated or an equal god as the Father or some "person" of some Pleroma of 3 gods.

It simply means he's the incarnation of a celestial/divine being, i.e. the Highest of the Angels, a Created Spiritual Being that is higher than all the others.

Well, it's good to know your opinion on these subjects, otherwise it's difficult to argue ideas.

 

[oldbadger]

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So who told John that? And exactly who was John?

 

[oldbadger]

Revelation of John 1:8: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation of John 1:9: I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation of John 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelation of John 1:11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Revelation of John 1:12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Revelation of John 1:13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Revelation of John 1:14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Revelation of John 1:15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation of John 1:16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Revelation of John 1:17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation of John 1:18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.


Well, NOW it's in its proper context. And what do you know - it's all Jesus speaking, except where John narrated. And please don't tell me about some angel, demon, or sports broadcaster interjecting either.

No.... it's not Jesus speaking...... it's John writing. And who exactly was John? Revelations was chosen for inclusion 'on a song and a prayer'!

Jesus never said anything about being God.

 

[Falvlun]

So again my question remains how can God be a human when this human-body limits him? If a god is limited then he is no longer god...

I agree.

Though there was one analogy that I liked... can't remember who posted it earlier in this thread. It had you imagine a cup filled with ocean water. Obviously, the cup doesn't hold all of the ocean. But the substance within the cup is still ocean.

I don't think this adequately explains "fully God and fully human", but perhaps there's at least a possible foundation for "partly God, partly human".

 

[Desert Snake]

Well one can just ask himself why call someone else a son or a father if they are the same being.. it makes no sense

Ask in the Christianity DIR's, people who are theologians might be wary of posting in the general debates areas because it can get so mixed up with various opinions

 

[Falvlun]

John 1:1 should read "Word was a god", as numerous independent scholars have said long before the JWs ever followed suit.

Does this mean that there's two Gods? God and the Word?

 

[Conståntine]

No.... it's not Jesus speaking...... it's John writing. And who exactly was John? Revelations was chosen for inclusion 'on a song and a prayer'!

Jesus never said anything about being God.

That argument is quite inane. The fact that John wrote it is not much of a revelation. Who was John writing about then if it wasn't Jesus? Bob Dylan? If you can't bother to show who and offer a more cogent argument as to why, then why bother replying?

 

[Shiranui117]

I agree.

Though there was one analogy that I liked... can't remember who posted it earlier in this thread. It had you imagine a cup filled with ocean water. Obviously, the cup doesn't hold all of the ocean. But the substance within the cup is still ocean.

I don't think this adequately explains "fully God and fully human", but perhaps there's at least a possible foundation for "partly God, partly human".

But if Jesus is not fully human, then we as humans were not saved by Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion or Resurrection.

 

[Falvlun]

But if Jesus is not fully human, then we as humans were not saved by Christ's Incarnation, Crucifixion or Resurrection.

Why not? I mean, if God accepts a half-human/half-God sacrifice, why should we complain?

 

[Shiranui117]

Why not? I mean, if God accepts a half-human/half-God sacrifice, why should we complain?

It's not about God accepting a sacrifice. It was never about blood atonement; that idea was first concocted and invented by Anselm of Canterbury in the 1100's.

Christ became incarnate to take on our human nature, to redeem every part of it; our bodies, minds, hearts, souls, struggles against sin, etc, etc. He died to fully share in our human experience, which includes death and separation from God. Then He rose from the dead, so that as He shared with us in our human life, we may share with Him in God's life.

If Christ did not reconcile any one part of our humanity, then it is as if none of our humanity was reconciled at all.