the conceal handgun thread

[robtex]

Alaska has a new gun law on the books wensday. The new law will no require a permit to conceal a handgun on one's body and will have no restrictions on having a firearm in ones vechile. The law in general, according to cnn will keep local municipalities from passing stricter gun control laws than on the state.


Should a permit be required for concealing a firearm on ones body ?
Should there be regulation on gun occupancy in a vechile?
Should gun control laws be designated at the federal state municipal level?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/alaska.gunlaws.ap/index.html

futher footnote for post:
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0308a.asp

 

[michel]

Alaska has a new gun law on the books wensday. The new law will no require a permit to conceal a handgun on one's body and will have no restrictions on having a firearm in ones vechile. The law in general, according to cnn will keep local municipalities from passing stricter gun control laws than on the state.


Should a permit be required for concealing a firearm on ones body ?
Should there be regulation on gun occupancy in a vechile?
Should gun control laws be designated at the federal state municipal level?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/alaska.gunlaws.ap/index.html

futher footnote for post:
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0308a.asp

I am not sure I should answer this thread, with my views on handguns. I guess, if you have to have them, they ought to be conspicuous; and yes, you should have a licence.

 

[Valjean]

The advantage to concealed-carry is supposed to be that thieves and scoundrels will be very hesitant to attack/rob an ordinary-looking man or women if there is a fair chance their prey will pull out a .45.

I've read that street crime drops markedly when concealed-carry laws are implemented.

 

[Pah]

....I've read that street crime drops markedly when concealed-carry laws are implemented.

No. There is no credible evidence that having more guns in public places would make communities safer.1,2 A recent analysis of crime data concluded that more guns in public resulted in less crime 3, but that study suffered from serious methodological flaws that render its conclusions unreliable.4,5 There is plenty of reason for concern that more guns in public will lead to an increase in rates of gun injury and death. Nonetheless, the National Rifle Association is working hard to increase the number of states with lax concealed weapon permit laws in an effort to increase the number of armed people in public places. As part of this effort, the NRA is also pushing for reciprocity between states, so that a concealed carry permit issued in one state will entitle the permit holder to carry a concealed weapon in other states.

In recent years, only one out of every hundred violent crime victims (such as rape, robbery, assault, homicide victims) used a gun to defend himself or herself.6 Because most crimes involve the element of surprise, avoidance or resistance is rarely possible even if a person carries a gun.7 In fact, increasing the percentage of people who carry guns could actually decrease the overall safety of the community. If criminals were aware that everyone in a community carried concealed weapons, they might be more likely to carry guns to protect themselves against armed victims, which could increase the risk of fatalities.5

There is no credible evidence that lax concealed carry laws reduce violent crime. On the contrary, there is reason for serious concern that increasing the number of armed people in public places will result in higher rates of gun deaths and injuries.

References given at the site http://www.tf.org/tf/violence/firearms/facts/conceal.shtml

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The advantage to concealed-carry is supposed to be that thieves and scoundrels will be very hesitant to attack/rob an ordinary-looking man or women if there is a fair chance their prey will pull out a .45.

I've read that street crime drops markedly when concealed-carry laws are implemented.

From Texans for Gun Safety

LATEST CRIME STATISTICS REFUTE THE GUN LOBBY:

MORE GUNS ON OUR STREETS DO NOT MAKE US SAFER

< -- snip -- >

​

In the 29 states that have lax CCW laws (where law enforcement must issue CCW licenses to almost all applicants), the crime rate fell 2.1%, from 5397.0 to 5285.1 crimes per 100,000 population from 1996 to 1997.

During the same time period, in the 21 states and the District of Columbia withstrict carry laws or which don’t allow the carrying of concealed weapons at all, the crime rate fell 4.4%, from 4810.5 to 4599.9 crimes per 100,000 population. The decline in the crime rate of strict licensing and no-carry states was 2.1 times that of states with lax CCW systems, indicating that there are more effective ways to fight crime than to encourage more people to carry guns. The research is particularly important for Missourians who face an April ballot initiative which would radically liberalize that state’s CCW system.

Furthermore, the rate of violent crime fell even faster in states with strict carry laws – falling 4.9% in restrictive states compared to 3.0% in lax states from 1996 to 1997. While the rate of violent crime is higher in strict CCW states, a look at the violent crime rates over a five-year period provides even more evidence that we don’t need lax gun laws to reduce crime. From 1992 to 1997, the violent crime rate in the strict and no-issue states fell 24.8% while the violent crime rate for the lax states dropped 11.4% (the national average is 19.4%). New York and California -- the two most populous states and ones with strict CCW licensing laws -- experienced dramatic decreases in violent crime over the five-year period. New York experienced a 38.6% decline and California experienced a 28.7% decline, both without putting more concealed handguns on their streets.​

 

[Scott1]

Good references Bob.... I'd also like to add that in many cases people are killed with their own handguns when it is taken away from them by an attacker.

.... but I am torn about this particular issue:
While off-duty one late night, I stopped by a convenience store. A man who was already in the store pulled out a small pistol about five feet in front of me and demanded cash from the clerk. I pulled my sidearm and announced myself as a federal agent, and thank God, he dropped the gun. When I spoke to him later that night at the station, he mentioned that if he knew that I had a weapon (mine was concealed along my beltline under a sweatshirt) he most likely would have killed me before attempting the robbery.

Scary to think about... and I wish that we lived in a world where ANY weapon would not be needed, but since that is not the case, I do believe that any person who is allowed to cary a pistol as permitted by law should have the option to carry it concealed.... I just wish less people were permitted by law to carry at all.

 

[Faminedynasty]

I am certainly not in favor of lax concealed carry laws, nor in favor lax gun ownership laws in general. I am in favor of a coherent system of registration and licensing that can allow those responsible, law abiding citizens who work and or live in circumstances of elevated personal danger to carry.

 

[robtex]

Ido believe that any person who is allowed to cary a pistol as permitted by law should have the option to carry it concealed.... I just wish less people were permitted by law to carry at all.

Scary story Scott. In regards to the above qoute the trend the NRA is hoping for which Alaska has decided to do is allow concealment of a hangun WITHOUT a concealed handgun license. Do you feel that if concealment is deemed legal, which it is, that there should be regulated licensing system or not one?

 

[Scott1]

Scary story Scott. In regards to the above qoute the trend the NRA is hoping for which Alaska has decided to do is allow concealment of a hangun WITHOUT a concealed handgun license. Do you feel that if concealment is deemed legal, which it is, that there should be regulated licensing system or not one?

Over and above a regular handgun permit? No.... I think the state should only give a permit to those who would actually need to carry a firearm= as part of their job, business owners who carry a lot of cash, etc.... other than that, I wouldn't give a permit to anyone.

 

[jonny]

Over and above a regular handgun permit? No.... I think the state should only give a permit to those who would actually need to carry a firearm= as part of their job, business owners who carry a lot of cash, etc.... other than that, I wouldn't give a permit to anyone.

You'd have a lot of angry hunters out here if you banned firearms except under those conditions. I don't see that happening.

 

[robtex]

You'd have a lot of angry hunters out here if you banned firearms except under those conditions. I don't see that happening.

Jonny, Scott's qoute is in reference to concealed handguns not hunting rifles and hunting shotguns.

 

[jonny]

Jonny, Scott's qoute is in reference to concealed handguns not hunting rifles and hunting shotguns.

I consider hunting rifles and shotguns to be firearms, which is what he said. If he was only referring to concealed handguns I agree with him.

 

[Pah]

References given at the site http://www.tf.org/tf/violence/firearms/facts/conceal.shtml

I was privately told this link did not work. I don't think it is "clickable" in the early post but this one quoted has been fixed. The old works if you copy/paste to the "go" line of the browser.

 

[Melody]

Should a permit be required for concealing a firearm on ones body ?
Should there be regulation on gun occupancy in a vechile?
Should gun control laws be designated at the federal state municipal level?
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/10/17/alaska.gunlaws.ap/index.html

While I believe it is a right for someone to own a gun in their home, I have a serious problem with carrying them on the person or in a vehicle.

I wouldn't want to live in or visit a state that allows either. We have road rage now....how long before someone takes out their gun and blasts the car that cuts them off? Or until a pedestrial pulls out a gun and blows away the person who inadvertently (or deliberately) splashes them by running their car through a mud puddle?

No...a permit should be required to carry on the body or vehicle and there should be a logical reason for *needing* to do either.

 

[robtex]

No...a permit should be required to carry on the body or vehicle and there should be a logical reason for *needing* to do either.

I concur for the following reasons:

1) gun licensing is a profiecent way to track firearm sales. Lack of a strong tracking system on firearms will lead to more unsolved murders.

2) Licensing means discrimatory application of the concealed hangun laws. By removing the licensing requirements anyone other than felons can apply. I can personal think of quite a number of people I would not feel comfortable having a gun even though they do not have a felony. Examples include

a) mental challenged (aka iq 90 0r lower)
b) People with a domestic distrubance on their record
c) AA and NA members or anyone with a known substance abuse problem
d) anyone legal constrained due to anger management issues

3) concealed licensing will create a need for the owners of such license to be familiar with concealing laws

4) LIke Mel said a reason should be listed and the reason should be deemed valid.

Bernard Goetz incidently, as a footnote applied twice for a carrying permit and was turned down both times on the theory he didn' t have a valid reason. He later bought one anyway and shot 4 kids on a station with 5 bullets who were not attacking him. One he shot in the back and another he shot twice with the second one being after the kid was sitting down dazed from the first shot. He is qouted as saying , "You look like you are doing fine. Here have another." (rubin, lillian "quiet rage" university of california press isbn 0-520-06446-1)

 

[WillieHutch]

You'd have a lot of angry hunters out here if you banned firearms except under those conditions. I don't see that happening.

i agree--a lot of angry hunters and unhappy political action committees!

 

[jamaesi]

I completely forget the name of the man who said that concealed weapons = less crime, but he sort of made the studies up. He also made up online personas to pose as his students on internet message boards to praise him and his studies.

(If you want something more thorough this was covered in the book Freakonomics)

 

[Fascist Christ]

Should a permit be required for concealing a firearm on ones body ?
Should there be regulation on gun occupancy in a vechile?

No. People who cannot be trusted to carry a concealed weapon should not enjoy the right to have a weapon to begin with.

Who can we not trust? Those who have been convicted of serious crimes, such as armed robbery, general violence (other than petty quarells), physical abuse, armed sexual abuse, and pretty much any crime involving a gun, idiots (retards), and lunatics (insane people), and anybody who is in custody.

Now, if anybody can provide any reliable evidence on the effect of concealed carry laws on gun crime, as was stated earlier in this thread, it would be greatly appreciated. At this point, I am not convinced of a decrease or an increase. No, statistics showing the correlation between the saturation of guns in a community and the frequency of gun violence does not address the issue of concealed carry, and is thus completely irrelevant (unless you can prove that concealed carry laws cause a substantial increase in gun ownership, then rule out other factors).

Should gun control laws be designated at the federal state municipal level?

This is a tough question. Due to the full faith and credit clause of the Constitution, if a state allows its citizens to own and carry a gun, those same citizens must enjoy that right in all other states - even if the citizens of that state do not enjoy that right. There needs to be some kind of understanding for such interstate activities, which is where the federal government might have to step in.

Likewise, if it were to be left up to the municipal governments, you would have different laws depending on which town you are in - even if you are just driving through. So, on this level, the problems with consistency are much more clear.

 

[Radar]

I believe a person should be able to carry a gun on there person. With these guidelines. Prior to purchasing any gun a thorough back ground check is completed, A weapons handling class is taken and passed, and person must fire on a range for a score and pass that (markmanship training). Now after passing the back ground check, passing the weapons handling test, and passing a firing course a person should be issued a licence to purchase and carry a fire arm. The licence should have to renewed periodically. That's my $.02!

 

[robtex]

*bump*