The Contribution of "JW's" to RT

[Flankerl]

Religion bashing. Now that's pleasant

So what exactly are all the remarks about judaism and jews on all these pages?

Let me guess those are pretty alright! Sorry this aint the middle ages anymore, i wont shut up and sit quiet in my ghetto. Those days are over.

 

[Dingbat]

So what exactly are all the remarks about judaism and jews on all these pages?

Let me guess those are pretty alright! Sorry this aint the middle ages anymore, i wont shut up and sit quiet in my ghetto. Those days are over.

While I do agree it was derogatory I don't know if fighting fire with fire has ever worked. Especially not on the internet.

 

[JayJayDee]

So how is that world peace working out? Oh that will happen at his second coming(which is entirely a christian invention to explain why he's kinda late)? How convenient.

All the current world events indicate that it will not be too far away, actually.

Talking of late......I believe that Israel has been waiting for the real Messiah to put in an appearance for longer than we have waited for ours to return. So how's that going? Our savior has been and gone and is about to make his entrance as earth's rightful king. I don't believe that you have seen anything close to a Messiah even though you have been waiting for more thousands of years than Christians have.

You really want to play this game?

- Days after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Hundreds of Years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Almost two thousand years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"

It's almost like he's dead.

Ah, patience is a virtue. Heaven operates in universal time, not earth years. It will come, right on schedule. Read Habakkuk 2:3 and you will see.

I have not really spoken to many Jews face to face, as they are not very active outside the metro areas of Australia. What I do find, speaking to them on forums, is that they are often overly sensitive about the whole Jesus issue.

I cannot for the life of me understand why all the sensitivity when your own scriptures paint the Jewish people down through their history as anything but paragons of virtue....?

Why the wounded attitude? Were you there in the crowd crying out for Jesus to be impaled? Are people holding you personally accountable for the death of Christ? I don't, so why do you assume that speaking about what Jews did back then has anything to do with the way I see Jewish people today?

I don't get why you take it all so personally? If people start talking about the atrocities carried out by the Roman Catholic church, I don't immediately think that people are talking about all Christians. The people who lived at that time were responsible for what they did in their day, just as the Jews in the first century were responsible for what they did.

What's with the whole guilt by association thing?

Many Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah back in the first century, many continue to do so today, just as people of all nations and religious persuasions do.

Climb down and see the past as history. That is how I view it. Nothing personal intended.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I do not care for replacement theology in any of its forms.
The JW's have an even greater problem because of their almost unreadable version of the Bible. (As are all versions based on word for word translations.)

The Old testament should be read and understood as a Jewish scripture; it is at its best when interpreted by a Rabbi. Its history and forecasts relate to Jewish events.
For a Christian it Gives context and some understanding of the religious environment extant in Jesus lifetime. It neither foretells nor confirms Christian theology or events.

The Jewish Covenant with God still stands unaltered. It is between the Jewish people and God.
The new Covenant describes a Christian relationship with God. It is between a Christian individual and God.

In my opinion a lot of Christians are too arrogant to admit that they can't understand Torah like a Rabbi. Hence why groups like JWs just take the Jewish texts out of context and try and say God was speaking about them, the JWs specifically, thousands of years ago, when clearly he was talking about the Jews.

 

[Desert Snake]

In my opinion a lot of Christians are too arrogant to admit that they can't understand Torah like a Rabbi. Hence why groups like JWs just take the Jewish texts out of context and try and say God was speaking about them, the JWs specifically, thousands of years ago, when clearly he was talking about the Jews.

Some Christians can understand the Torah like a Rabbi, in fact some probably far better, anyways Christianity is part of the Bible so is JW canon so it's not like the texts are any different.. seriously, we're talking about religions here

 

[Desert Snake]

So what exactly are all the remarks about judaism and jews on all these pages?

Let me guess those are pretty alright! Sorry this aint the middle ages anymore, i wont shut up and sit quiet in my ghetto. Those days are over.

Calm down I haden't even read all those posts you shouldn't just jump to conclusions like that besides i'm not JW, why assume I would agree with comments made by them?/

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Some Christians can understand the Torah like a Rabbi, in fact some probably far better, anyways Christianity is part of the Bible so is JW canon so it's not like the texts are any different.. seriously, we're talking about religions here

What Christians are those? Because I asked a JWs to explain to me why God would allow female captives of war in Jewish texts (im a radical feminist so that concerned me) and he basically just told me that if those nations never rebelled against the Jews it wouldn't of happened, which basically translates as "god said so'" I went to jewishanswers.com and got proper answers from a Rabbi.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

So how is that world peace working out? Oh that will happen at his second coming(which is entirely a christian invention to explain why he's kinda late)? How convenient.




- Days after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Hundreds of Years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"
- Almost two thousand years after Jesus' death: "He'll return soon"

It's almost like he's dead.

:clap then you look at evidence of his existence and its all hearsay, this person who is meant to be the messiah as an individual had so little impact on the world.

 

[Desert Snake]

:clap then you look at evidence of his existence and its all hearsay, this person who is meant to be the messiah as an individual had so little impact on the world.

For a moment there I almost took you seriously

 

[Desert Snake]

What Christians are those? Because I asked a JWs to explain to me why God would allow female captives of war in Jewish texts (im a radical feminist so that concerned me) and he basically just told me that if those nations never rebelled against the Jews it wouldn't of happened, which basically translates as "god said so'" I went to jewishanswers.com and got proper answers from a Rabbi.

"Proper answers" o.k. yes, it is the Torah, the Jewish holy book, the OT......don't really get the point you're trying to make here

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

For a moment there I almost took you seriously

Maybe you don't understand what I'm trying to say then. Christianity as a whole especially when forced onto people by the Roman Empire had impact on the world. Jesus when he supposedly lived had so little impact we can't even trance him back to when he actually was meant to live and he's meant to be the messiah. Yet all we have is hearsay of his existence much like Hercules.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

"Proper answers" o.k. yes, it is the Torah, the Jewish holy book, the OT......don't really get the point you're trying to make here

My point is, if I want to learn about the Jewish text, it is better to go to a rabbi than a priest

 

[Flankerl]

All the current world events indicate that it will not be too far away, actually.

Like when Jesus died. Then months after he died. Years... centuries... millennia... ah well. But this time its obviously different.

I think this is what the people said around December 999.

Talking of late......I believe that Israel has been waiting for the real Messiah to put in an appearance for longer than we have waited for ours to return. So how's that going? Our savior has been and gone and is about to make his entrance as earth's rightful king. I don't believe that you have seen anything close to a Messiah even though you have been waiting for more thousands of years than Christians have.

I dont see us claiming that the "end times" are near for the last 2000 years and always being wrong with it.
Quite the opposite.

You really want to play this game?

Iam not the one sitting in the house of glass when it comes to this.

Ah, patience is a virtue. Heaven operates in universal time, not earth years. It will come, right on schedule. Read Habakkuk 2:3 and you will see.

Ah taking scripture out of context. The christian sport of reading the TaNaKh.

I have not really spoken to many Jews face to face, as they are not very active outside the metro areas of Australia. What I do find, speaking to them on forums, is that they are often overly sensitive about the whole Jesus issue.

Yeah we had quite a few problems with his followers who never knew him for the last 1900 years. But i think his original followers who knew him werent that bad.

I cannot for the life of me understand why all the sensitivity when your own scriptures paint the Jewish people down through their history as anything but paragons of virtue....?

Yeah uhm the so called NT isnt really the best source to base an opinion about late 2nd temple Judaism and Jews because its basic idea is that the jews are bad bad people.

Why the wounded attitude? Were you there in the crowd crying out for Jesus to be impaled?

Wait you seriously believe that it went that way? Oh boy.
Before you even get started on the priests, they werent the original priests who served prior to roman occupation. Those new priests were given their titles by the romans. So really dont even go there.

Are people holding you personally accountable for the death of Christ? I don't, so why do you assume that speaking about what Jews did back then has anything to do with the way I see Jewish people today?

So i should just ignore the anti-jewish rabble of the so called NT? Why exactly should i do that?

just as the Jews in the first century were responsible for what they did.

Pilate sure was known to be a just and kind ruler who really cared a lot about what his jewish subjects thought.

Oh wait that wasnt the case. Nevermind then.

Many Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah back in the first century, many continue to do so today...

Which is indeed sad.

 

[Shibolet]

Shibolet, do you believe that Jesus blamed the Jews for his death, or the Romans?

No, I don't. The hellenists who wrote the gospels did it. Or it could have been an interpolation by the Church to clean the Romans from that charge as a payback for Constantine's addoption of Christianity as the religion of the Empire.

"The greatest travesty of justice ever committed was the trial and sentencing of Jesus Christ.

It didn't happen. The jurisdiction to condemn any one to death had been removed from the Sanhedrin by Rome.

Prior to his trial the chief priests and older men of the people took counsel together with a view to putting Jesus to death.

Not true for the same reason above.

So the judges were prejudiced and had their minds made up on the verdict before ever the trial took place. (Matt 26:3, 4)

Jesus' verdict for his crucifixion was the political act of being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province which was Israel at the time. (Luke 19:37-40)

They bribed Judas to betray Jesus to them. (Luke 22:2-6)

Not true. That bribe was an interpolation to credit Jesus with being a facsimile to what happened to Joseph in Egypt at being sold by his brothers.

Because of the wrongness of their actions, they did not arrest him in the temple in the daytime, but they waited until they could act under cover of darkness and then sent a crowd armed with clubs and swords to arrest him in an isolated place outside the city. (Luke 22:52, 53)

Not true. According to Jewish tradition, the Sanhedrin could not gather at night to decide on a death sentences. That was the law.

Next he was led bound to Caiaphas the high priest. False witnesses were sought by the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin. Many such witnesses came forward but could not agree on their testimony, except two who twisted Jesus’ words recorded at John 2:19. (Mt 26:59-61; Mr 14:56-59)

Not true. This is bashing of the Jewish system to conduct a judgment section as if they were a bunch of disorganized barbarians. Therefore, jealousy of the Jewish system.

Finally Jesus was put under oath by the high priest and questioned as to whether he was the Christ the Son of God.

Not true. Even Jews who believed in the individual concept of Messiah, it was absolutely not Jewish to believe that the Messiah was at the same time son of God.

When Jesus answered in the affirmative and alluded to the prophecy at Daniel 7:13, the high priest ripped his garments and called upon the court to find Jesus guilty of blasphemy.

Not true. It was against the law for a High Priest to rip his gaements no matter the case or circumstance.

This verdict was rendered, and he was sentenced to death. After this they spit in his face and hit him with their fists, taunting him, contrary to the Law. (Matt 26:57-68; Luke 22:66-71; compare Deut 25:1, 2 with John 7:51 and Acts 23:3)

Not true. The verdict that took Jesus to the cross was nailed on the top of his cross by order of Pilate himself: INRI.

After this illegal night trial the Sanhedrin met early in the morning to confirm their judgment and for a consultation. (Mark 15:1)

Not true. According to John 18:28, Jesus was taken to the Pretorium of Pilate but there was no gathering because they had to avoid ritual impurity if they were to eat the Passover Supper that

Jesus was now led, again bound, to the governor’s palace, to Pilate, since they said: “It is not lawful for us to kill anyone.” (John 18:31) Here Jesus was charged with forbidding the paying of taxes to Caesar and with saying that he himself was Christ a king.

Now, you can see why Jesus was crucified: Political charges of insurrection.

Blasphemy against the God of the Jews would not have been so serious a charge in the eyes of the Romans, but sedition would.

Not true. Pilate knew that if he tried to free a political criminal, he would himself be considered a criminal.

Pilate therefore had Jesus scourged, and the soldiers again mistreated him.

Contradiction! If Pilate had found no reason to crucify Jesus, why would he send him to be scourged if the Jews had not asked for that?

After this, Pilate brought Jesus outside and tried to get his release, but the Jews insisted: “Impale him! Impale him!”

Not logical. If Jesus had come to confirm the most important thing in the life of a Jew which is God's Law, according to Mat. 5:17-19, why would the Jews deliver such a fellow Jew to be crucified by the enemies of Israel?

So who was it that wanted Jesus dead? The Jews or the Romans?

The Romans, obviously.

The Jews under the leadership of the Pharisees, had alienated themselves from their God by adhering to their oral traditions instead of God's written word.

The oral tradition is a commentary to God's written Word.

Did it ever occur to you that Jesus viewed his own people as 'strangers'? He knew the Father intimately but the religious leaders in Jerusalem had caused the 'sheep of the house of Israel' to become "lost". (Matt 10:5, 6)

The opposite is true. Jesus would rather advise his disciples not to take the gospel to the Gentiles but to the Jews only. Read Mat. 10:5,6.

I understand that Jews are uncomfortable about the issues surrounding Jesus' death, and that they have been taught something completely different to what Christians believe happened, but the scriptures make it clear.

What's uncormfortable is the false charge of anti-Semites that the Jewish People crucified Jesus. (Acts 2:36)

Acts 2:14, "But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words."

Another reason why Peter did not deliver that sermon: He was known as an illiterate man. Read Acts 4:13.

2:36, "So let the entire house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament)

Peter could not have said that. That's an antisemitic interpolation to clear the Romans of that charge.

I think Peter knew exactly who he was speaking to and why.

Not Peter but Luke, who wrote that speech several years after Peter had died.

[quote]Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.” and the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and upon whomever it falls, it will crush him .

This is a promotion of the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

This is when Jesus spoke about a new nation of God's people who would "produce the fruits" that Israel failed to produce. It would be be made up of both Jews and gentiles; "The Israel of God". (Gal 6:15, 16) It follows through on the promise God made to Abraham that "ALL the nations will bless themselves" due to Abraham's obedience. (Gen 22:18)

No surprise that the post would end up with the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

I know you do not wish to believe this, as it is a bitter pill to swallow. But this is what I believe is true.

Of course! Why wouldn't you believe it if that agrees with your preconceived notions? I can't believe it not because it is a bitter pill but because it makes no sense at all.

 

[Desert Snake]

My point is, if I want to learn about the Jewish text, it is better to go to a rabbi than a priest

O.k., by the same logic, if you wanted to learn something about Christianity, you would go to a priest/preacher, not a Rabbi.
I'm trying to illustrate to you that the Christian canon includes (in most instances) the OT (Torah/Tanakh)

 

[JayJayDee]

Flankerl and Shibolet, this is an open and shut case of believe which side suits your religious beliefs.
You have been led to believe one side of the story and I, the other. Whose side is correct? Time will tell.

The impasse will never be bridged and Christ will either come as he promised in his own time and in his own way or he will not. I will be waiting for him for as long as it takes.

"Babylon the great" (like original Babylon) held God's people captive until the call was heard... "get out of her MY PEOPLE". Just as God released the Jews from original Babylon and a remnant returned and restored God's worship, so it will be in this time of the end.

God's "people" have done as they were commanded and are no part of any religious system that is 'part of this world' with its bloodshed and violence.

True Christians will be found in a peaceful state when Christ comes again.

We cannot find any common ground.

I hold no animosity towards Jewish people any more than I do for any other form of worship that is not supported by God's word. God's people come out of all nations, blessing themselves by means of Abraham's seed, just as God promised.

shalom

 

[starlite]

Time will tell who was right.

Yes time will tell

 

[starlite]

Matthew 28:19 does not say to knock on people's doors. It's merely a command to make disciples of all nations.

Perhaps Matthew 28:19 does not specifically state to knock on doors but Jesus did make reference to it here:

Listen to him as he proceeds to train his disciples: “When you are entering into the house, greet the household; and if the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. Wherever anyone does not take you in or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off your feet.”—Matthew 10:12-14.

(Acts 5:42) 42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

O.k., by the same logic, if you wanted to learn something about Christianity, you would go to a priest/preacher, not a Rabbi.
I'm trying to illustrate to you that the Christian canon includes (in most instances) the OT (Torah/Tanakh)

Yeah but Jews can read Hebrew and point out mistranslations and also have the oral law, so they would have a more original understanding of the texts, while Christians tend to try and find Jesus in Torah/tanakh which means verses are taken out of context for example Isaiah 53.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yeah but Jews can read Hebrew and point out mistranslations and also have the oral law, so they would have a more original understanding of the texts, while Christians tend to try and find Jesus in Torah/tanakh which means verses are taken out of context for example Isaiah 53.

Huh? Plenty of Christians can read Hebrew. This was always the case