The contributions of the sciences to Religion

[leibowde84]

What is a ponnton boat?

I think he meant tampon

 

[leibowde84]

Shad...evolutionary survival for most species has always depended on those individuals with ESP.....knowing where food was...the early detection of predators..a coming storm or earthquake.. You think this does not apply to the human race?

Can you provide evidence to back up this claim?

 

[leibowde84]

So take it up with the dictionary publishers... they try to make explanations sufficiently understandable so that even the below average would get it....but they didn't count on you...

The 'power' refers to the human individual...not human technology....

In all serious, is it merely thought? Because thought isn't in any way limited to sensory perception.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

........

Can you provide evidence to back up this claim?

Not off hand...it was from a study I had read long ago about monkeys.. They found that among the monkeys...there were generally one who was socially the least accepted by the majority. This one was generally the best with regards to finding food, and thus was relied on by the others, and was generally the first to detect predator threats and thus relied on by the 'tribe' for safety. Yet when it came to the pecking order..it was an outcast. In cold weather, the monkeys would huddle together to get warm and when the 'sensitive' would try to join them....the nearest ones would move away..

Now the paper did not say these monkeys were psychic....just sensitive...but from my own psychic experiences...sensitivity is what the so called psychic faculty is all about.. As the Stargate research showed.....there was a statistical higher hit rate for the sensitives/psychics.....than should be expected....but not sufficiently reliable to be considered an effective resource in the context of CIA activities...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

In all serious, is it merely thought? Because thought isn't in any way limited to sensory perception.

I forget what that was about....can you provide some context... What is supposed to be thought?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think he meant tampon

No..this is probably what he meant.....

 

[Shad]

Shad...evolutionary survival for most species has always depended on those individuals with ESP.....knowing where food was...the early detection of predators..a coming storm or earthquake.. You think this does not apply to the human race?

No it doesn't. I guess you have never tried hunting or fishing in your life. None require ESP just intelligence, observations and proper conclusions. Other senses such as sight, smell, hearing, etc are also used. Your ESP claim still has zero evidence. You have reduced your arguments to speculation based on presupposition of your faith to defend more speculation.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

No it doesn't. I guess you have never tried hunting or fishing in your life. None require ESP just intelligence, observations and proper conclusions. Other senses such as sight, smell, hearing, etc are also used. Your ESP claim still has zero evidence. You have reduced your arguments to speculation based on presupposition of your faith to defend more speculation.

Sorry Shad, but your short term memory is shot....we had a lively exchange over many pages about my fishing experiences in the context of ESP....you should remember I did a lot of fishing...

 

[Shad]

Sorry Shad, but your short term memory is shot....we had a lively exchange over many pages about my fishing experiences in the context of ESP....you should remember I did a lot of fishing...

Then you didn't understand any of the techniques you used.

I already dismissed your fishing experiences as nonsense with your reading of more into then anything while ignoring the fact that your admitted you planned the fishing days before your "vision". You already provide the necessary grounding for your "vision". Seems like you forgot the conclusion I made.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Then you didn't understand any of the techniques you used.

I already dismissed your fishing experiences as nonsense with your reading of more into then anything while ignoring the fact that your admitted you planned the fishing days before your "vision". You already provide the necessary grounding for your "vision". Seems like you forgot the conclusion I made.

Haha,,,,,my claim was that I was having prescient dreams, or lack thereof, that revealed to me the specific types of fish and shellfish that I would catch that day, or lack of catch..... But you are claiming an even greater psychic power for me than I am claiming....that of planning ahead the day before the specific fish and shellfish I intended to catch.....which next resulted in confirmation in a dream.....and finally occurred in reality... You are claiming mind over matter....that I, by thinking out what and which fish I want to catch results in catching the exact same fish...the dream you imply was merely a by-product effect of a conceived plan....

 

[Shad]

Haha,,,,,my claim was that I was having prescient dreams, or lack thereof, that revealed to me the specific types of fish and shellfish that I would catch that day, or lack of catch..... But you are claiming an even greater psychic power for me than I am claiming....that of planning ahead the day before the specific fish and shellfish I intended to catch.....which next resulted in confirmation in a dream.....and finally occurred in reality... You are claiming mind over matter....that I, by thinking out what and which fish I want to catch results in catching the exact same fish...the dream you imply was merely a by-product effect of a conceived plan....

Yet you knew you were going fishing beforehand, knew where you were going fishing, what type of equipment to bring, etc. You had a dream and made a huge deal out of it, nothing more.

I never mentioned psychic powers to conclude the above as you provided the information yourself but probably forgot. The only claim I can be forwards now is your have a poor memory.

"used to go fishing a few time a week for years... and I would dream the night before that I caught a crab...and I would catch a crab...next time a dream about catching a few silvery fish and a golden one....and I would catch a few silver bream and a catfish.."

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Yet you knew you were going fishing beforehand, knew where you were going fishing, what type of equipment to bring, etc. You had a dream and made a huge deal out of it, nothing more.

I never mentioned psychic powers to conclude the above as you provided the information yourself but probably forgot. The only claim I can be forwards now is your have a poor memory.

"used to go fishing a few time a week for years... and I would dream the night before that I caught a crab...and I would catch a crab...next time a dream about catching a few silvery fish and a golden one....and I would catch a few silver bream and a catfish.."

Why would the dream only happen the night before the days I caught fish...and not on the days I caught no fish? Why would the dream indicate the type or combination of fish and shellfish precisely as the catch....a silvery fish dream only..means I only caught a bream and nothing else....a silvery fish and crab means I would catch a bream and a crab only...and a golden fish only means the catch would be catfish only... If it only happened on a few occasions, it could be questioned as being coincidence...but this happened over many years...and it was reliable....I knew ahead of time if I would catch any fish....and.....if so...the combination of types for that day... That is dream prescience....or are you still claiming that my dreams indicating if I caught fish or not, or if so, the combination to be caught, were not an example of prescience but a mere coincidence that occurred continuously over many years because I already planned the future the day before as to if or if not I was going to catch any and if so the combination of types? .....

 

[Shad]

Why would the dream only happen the night before the days I caught fish...and not on the days I caught no fish?

Since fishing the next day is very present in your mind, anticipation of the trip, etc.

Why would the dream indicate the type or combination of fish and shellfish precisely as the catch....a silvery fish dream only..means I only caught a bream and nothing else....a silvery fish and crab means I would catch a bream and a crab only...and a golden fish only means the catch would be catfish only...

Since you planned the trip already you knew what type of catches you could have. A "silver" fish is vague which you changed into a specific. Same with golden, you changed the vague into a specific.

If it only happened on a few occasions, it could be questioned as being coincidence...but this happened over many years...and it was reliable....I knew ahead of time if I would catch any fish....and.....if so...the combination of types for that day...

See the above, and above that.

That is dream prescience....or are you still claiming that my dreams indicating if I caught fish or not, or if so, the combination to be caught, were not an example of prescience but a mere coincidence that occurred continuously over many years because I already planned the future the day before as to if or if not I was going to catch any and if so the combination of types? .....

Which you merely created using vague visions into a specific. When you retrofit ambiguities and vague ideas into specific you are manufacturing your vision

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Since fishing the next day is very present in your mind, anticipation of the trip, etc.



Since you planned the trip already you knew what type of catches you could have. A "silver" fish is vague which you changed into a specific. Same with golden, you changed the vague into a specific.



See the above, and above that.



Which you merely created using vague visions into a specific. When you retrofit ambiguities and vague ideas into specific you are manufacturing your vision

Your post doesn't make sense....unless you are agreeing with the fact of my dreams being prescient? What does anticipation of going fishing have to do with the prescience?

How would I know which fish I was going to catch before the dream....you are suggesting I plan to catch a particular type of fish and thus dream about it and then catch it?

Dollars to a dime you are just uttering these nonsensical comments to muddy the waters because the evidence of the prescience is fireproof....

 

[Shad]

Your post doesn't make sense....unless you are agreeing with the fact of my dreams being prescient?

It makes perfect sense. You have issues with reading comprehension, nothing more.

You planned a fishing trip to a specific area with knowledge of what fish are there, what rods to use, what bait to use, what lures to use. Having a dream while knowing all this does not make it ESP.

What does anticipation of going fishing have to do with the prescience?

It doesn't have anything to do with it. I was pointing out that you could be anticipating the trip the next day thus the trip has a higher priority in your mind and memory then something mundane. This can easily cause you to dream about the trip.

How would I know which fish I was going to catch before the dream....you are suggesting I plan to catch a particular type of fish and thus dream about it and then catch it?

Except you didn't know. You say gold and silver fish not specifics. You later identified these fish with what you caught in an ad hoc manner.

Dollars to a dime you are just uttering these nonsensical comments to muddy the waters because the evidence of the prescience is fireproof....

Expect it isn't since it has yet to be demonstrated to be true within a control environment. I already poked holes in your "dream" to how that it was just a dream that you made into a vision ad hoc.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It makes perfect sense. You have issues with reading comprehension, nothing more.

You planned a fishing trip to a specific area with knowledge of what fish are there, what rods to use, what bait to use, what lures to use. Having a dream while knowing all this does not make it ESP.


It doesn't have anything to do with it. I was pointing out that you could be anticipating the trip the next day thus the trip has a higher priority in your mind and memory then something mundane. This can easily cause you to dream about the trip.

Except you didn't know. You say gold and silver fish not specifics. You later identified these fish with what you caught in an ad hoc manner.

Expect it isn't since it has yet to be demonstrated to be true within a control environment. I already poked holes in your "dream" to how that it was just a dream that you made into a vision ad hoc.

You are ignoring the evidence....I will keep it simple and not even go into the details of the prescience so as not to confuse you.......ok, so I plan the fishing trip, rods, bait, etc.....week after week.....month after month.....year after year........and always it is the same......if I dream of catching fish....I catch fish.....if I don't dream of catching fish.....I don't catch any fish....week after week.....month after month.....year after year....there can be no denying that my dream is prescient regarding whether I am going to catch fish or not...get it?

 

[leibowde84]

You are ignoring the evidence....I will keep it simple and not even go into the details of the prescience so as not to confuse you.......ok, so I plan the fishing trip, rods, bait, etc.....week after week.....month after month.....year after year........and always it is the same......if I dream of catching fish....I catch fish.....if I don't dream of catching fish.....I don't catch any fish....week after week.....month after month.....year after year....there can be no denying that my dream is prescient regarding whether I am going to catch fish or not...get it?

This could support many reasons. One of which being the power of positive thinking, which I wholeheartedly believe in.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This could support many reasons. One of which being the power of positive thinking, which I wholeheartedly believe in.

Well that's the conclusion one would get if the prescience was denied...and that's what I logically conclude was the case Shad was making when he keeps explaining he thinks the coincidence was due to my previous experience and pre-planning of the fishing trip .....but as I keep explaining.....that would be even a greater example of the psychic faculty than prescience....that of mind over matter....

 

[leibowde84]

Well that's the conclusion one would get if the prescience was denied...and that's what I logically conclude was the case Shad was making when he keeps explaining he thinks the coincidence was due to my previous experience and pre-planning of the fishing trip .....but as I keep explaining.....that would be even a greater example of the psychic faculty than prescience....that of mind over matter....

What makes prescience more plausible than positive thinking?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What makes prescience more plausible than positive thinking?

Two things....firstly because I was always positive and optimistic about catching fish....even when I did not dream of catching them...but the fact remains I only caught them when I dreamed of it before hand.... Secondly....my positivity and preference was always biased towards the best table fish which was bream....which in my dreams were always silvery compared to cat fish which were golden.... but I frequently dreamt of only catching the catfish....which I then duly did....but which I was never interested in eating...