The contributions of the sciences to Religion

[George-ananda]

considering how unqualified are the people involved and how vague and unsupported are their claims,

The people involved are certainly not unqualified and their claims are not vague and they are supported.

i think he has all the rights to be skeptic on the subject. James Randi million dollar bet is still there waiting to be collected.

He provides Kool-Aid to those who have a strong emotional distaste for things that show the limitations of science and open the door to the possibility of religious and spiritual truths beyond science. He is a showman for one side of the issue and will not lose a contest of which he is the final arbiter; it is all a show for his willing audience.

 

[LuisDantas]

That is as harsh as it is unfair and innacurate, @George-ananda

 

[George-ananda]

That is as harsh as it is unfair and innacurate, @George-ananda

I am able and willing to defend everything I said. It is harsh but accurate and needs to be said.

 

[LuisDantas]

If you feel it to be true, sure.

I am still disappointed and I do stand by what I said. You do yourself a diservice by being so loose with your beliefs.

 

[George-ananda]

You do yourself a diservice by being so loose with your beliefs.

I disagree with the assertion that I am loose with my beliefs. I am very objective and have considered a wealth of evidence and believe what clearly becomes most reasonable to believe.

 

[LuisDantas]

I believe your sincerity. I have very much an issue with your accusations. The conclusions as well, but that is far more of a personal issue, of course.

 

[cambridge79]

I am able and willing to defend everything I said. It is harsh but accurate and needs to be said.

willing for sure. Able, only to your eyes.

just provide a single peer-reviewed publication that backs up your claims

 

[George-ananda]

willing for sure. Able, only to your eyes.

just provide a single peer-reviewed publication that backs up your claims

Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research

 

[cambridge79]

Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research

thank you i'm definitely gonna take a look at this. It will require some time

 

[Tiberius]

I sense a certain stonewall prejudice that won't be overcome with information as in my previous posts in this thread.

No, not at all.

Show me the evidence to support it, and I will change my viewpoint. If you can show me a properly conducted scientific study that shows things like telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, reincarnation, apparitional experiences, etc actually occur in the supernatural way they are claimed to, and I will accept them.

I will believe anything - ANYTHING - provided there is good evidence for its existence.

 

[George-ananda]

No, not at all.

Show me the evidence to support it, and I will change my viewpoint. If you can show me a properly conducted scientific study that shows things like telepathy, clairvoyance, psychokinesis, reincarnation, apparitional experiences, etc actually occur in the supernatural way they are claimed to, and I will accept them.

I will believe anything - ANYTHING - provided there is good evidence for its existence.

See post #48 for my reply to a request like yours. The field is so vast that the request for 'ANYTHING' will keep you busy for life.

 

[Tiberius]

See post #48 for my reply to a request like yours. The field is so vast that the request for 'ANYTHING' will keep you busy for life.

Okay, I'll choose a few at random.

The first one says that the results were 57%, when if it was random there should have been 50%. This is hardly better than random chance.

This one states that there is nothing that "substantiates the hypothesis [3] of a direct quantum physical origin of correlations between EEGs of separated subjects."

This one only investigates one dog, and there is no explanation that accounts for all the results. If anything, the fact that the dog showed the behaviour BEFORE the signal was sent for the owner to return home indicates that a telepathic link with the owner is not responsible.

There is no proposal for any mechanism to allow this, nor does there seem to be any consistency. This is not what I would expect to see from an actual phenomenon.

 

[George-ananda]

Okay, I'll choose a few at random.

The first one says that the results were 57%, when if it was random there should have been 50%. This is hardly better than random chance.

This one states that there is nothing that "substantiates the hypothesis [3] of a direct quantum physical origin of correlations between EEGs of separated subjects."

This one only investigates one dog, and there is no explanation that accounts for all the results. If anything, the fact that the dog showed the behaviour BEFORE the signal was sent for the owner to return home indicates that a telepathic link with the owner is not responsible.

There is no proposal for any mechanism to allow this, nor does there seem to be any consistency. This is not what I would expect to see from an actual phenomenon.

Well, I'm impressed you scratched the surface at least. That is even no small undertaking. Each of these subjects require hours of study and discussion.

The argument by people like Dean Radin that things like the Ganzfeld and Remote Viewing involve something real but not understood at this time is convincing. These results can not be explained away as experimental error and even certain prominent skeptics have even conceded that point.

But for me the spiritual and religious meaning of alleged beyond the normal phenomena is what really interests me. I have significantly studied 'spontaneous' phenomena (some not amenable to scientific control); NDEs, ghosts, poltergeist phenomena, spirit communication, verifiable reincarnation memories of children, miracles, and few I'm forgetting to mention. This has all lead me to believe beyond reasonable doubt that things dramatic and real exist that can not be explained away by mundane explanation within the boundaries of current mainstream science. Note this is my personal beliefs but science needs to move slowly as in the peer-reviewed papers. It is my personal belief after honest consideration that the eastern (Hindu) wisdom tradition has knowledge of these things that exceed any western scientific or religious tradition.

 

[Tiberius]

Well, I'm impressed you scratched the surface at least. That is even no small undertaking. Each of these subjects require hours of study and discussion.

The argument by people like Dean Radin that things like the Ganzfeld and Remote Viewing involve something real but not understood at this time is convincing. These results can not be explained away as experimental error and even certain prominent skeptics have even conceded that point.

But for me the spiritual and religious meaning of alleged beyond the normal phenomena is what really interests me. I have significantly studied 'spontaneous' phenomena (some not amenable to scientific control); NDEs, ghosts, poltergeist phenomena, spirit communication, verifiable reincarnation memories of children, miracles, and few I'm forgetting to mention. This has all lead me to believe beyond reasonable doubt that things dramatic and real exist that can not be explained away by mundane explanation within the boundaries of current mainstream science. Note this is my personal beliefs but science needs to move slowly as in the peer-reviewed papers. It is my personal belief after honest consideration that the eastern (Hindu) wisdom tradition has knowledge of these things that exceed any western scientific or religious tradition.

Well now, here's the thing...

If I take something that is agreed to by science, say how a magnetic field is influenced by an electrical currant, then I can use it to get predictable results. I can say, "I can do this particular thing, and this is the result I am going to get."

Can you do this with any of the NDE, ghosts, spirit communication, etc? Can you get reliable, predictable and consistant results from these things?

 

[George-ananda]

Well now, here's the thing...

If I take something that is agreed to by science, say how a magnetic field is influenced by an electrical currant, then I can use it to get predictable results. I can say, "I can do this particular thing, and this is the result I am going to get."

Can you do this with any of the NDE, ghosts, spirit communication, etc? Can you get reliable, predictable and consistant results from these things?

I am talking about a different class of phenomena that involves conscious entities so the situation is something spontaneous and all the variables are not controllable. Even that said, there is much consistency in the reports of those various phenomena.

 

[cambridge79]

I am talking about a different class of phenomena that involves conscious entities so the situation is something spontaneous and all the variables are not controllable. Even that said, there is much consistency in the reports of those various phenomena.

i don't see that much consistency. No more consistency than the one you find in supposed reports of Bigfoot or lake monsters for example. Ghosts reports are more culture influenced than anything else. You see ghosts in britain for example, they all live in medieval castles. You go to Japan, they have ghosts too but they all live in the woods to reflect their shinto tradition. you go to america since they can't count on a long history like ours they see their ghosts in asylums.
After a popular movie or book is released they all start to adhere to that movie or book like when poltergeist came out or the exorcist came out. These phenomena always adhere more to the carachteristics of superstition than those of actual phenomena.
it's the same with flying saucers. You look at pictures of flying saucers in the 60 they are all designed like a 60 cars, with fins and bubbles, you look at pictures of flying saucers in the 90 they all designed like a 90 car, slick and aerodynamic, you look at a flying saucers in the 2000 it's edgy and energetic, like today jet fighters.

 

[George-ananda]

i don't see that much consistency. No more consistency than the one you find in supposed reports of Bigfoot or lake monsters for example. Ghosts reports are more culture influenced than anything else. You see ghosts in britain for example, they all live in medieval castles. You go to Japan, they have ghosts too but they all live in the woods to reflect their shinto tradition. you go to america since they can't count on a long history like ours they see their ghosts in asylums.
After a popular movie or book is released they all start to adhere to that movie or book like when poltergeist came out or the exorcist came out. These phenomena always adhere more to the carachteristics of superstition than those of actual phenomena.

As far as ghosts, poltergeist phenomena I do not think there can be any doubt that something beyond imagination/hallucination is going on. Too many independent sightings and physical events. I think eastern wisdom traditions understand and can explain this stuff better than can either western science or religion. And remember a ghost is part of the culture it came from and would be expected to think in the cultural ways that they are conditioned.

it's the same with flying saucers. You look at pictures of flying saucers in the 60 they are all designed like a 60 cars, with fins and bubbles, you look at pictures of flying saucers in the 90 they all designed like a 90 car, slick and aerodynamic, you look at a flying saucers in the 2000 it's edgy and energetic, like today jet fighters.

I see UFO's as a different subject than ghosts. I think it is highly likely something beyond our 'normal' is going on. I think I also notice the changing appearance of some UFOs over time. I like what one psychiatrist turned UFO and alien abduction researcher had to say in that we may have to get over thinking that something is either 'real' or 'not real' in our conventional way. It appears these things are part of a universe more complex than we understand at this time.

 

[Shad]

Selected Peer-Reviewed Publications on Psi Research

Go read your own citations. Few make the conclusion you claimed. All acknowledge that the research was flawed. In many cases prayer acted as a placebo which helped the mental health of patients. None demonstrated actual healing abilities.

 

[George-ananda]

Go read your own citations. Few make the conclusion you claimed.

What I claimed is that there is a body of evidence suggesting a more complex universe that materialism can envision. And in the cases of things like the Ganzfeld experiments and Remote Viewing we can now safely say that something anomalous has actually been proven with undeniable certainty.

 

[Shad]

What I claimed is that there is a body of evidence suggesting a more complex universe that materialism can envision. And in the cases of things like the Ganzfeld experiments and Remote Viewing we can now safely say that something anomalous has actually been proven with undeniable certainty.

No you claim evidence for Psi. You produce no evidence of Psi. Now you changed your claims after someone actually reads your sources and openly discredits your claims.

Again demonstrating you didn't read your own sources. One openly says it is a hypothesis thus not a theory. It has yet to pass experiments in order to become a scientific fact. The other covers flaws exposed in Ganzfeld studies.