The Creationist and Muslim deceptions

[DawudTalut]

You do realize that's how they see Evolution though, With subjectivity. That's usually their problem.

They don't think their information is false. And they don't take the 'evidence' they've been given because they don't trust the source (Atheists). They view Evolution with bias and I assume they think Atheists do too. Truth is subjective and they use that.

Either way, I highly doubt they're lying wilfully. They just don't see what you see, Like I said, perspective.



I'm sorry but, Who gave you the super important mission to 'fix' creationists?
You don't have to listen to them and you certainly don't have to engage them.
And you definitely, definitely don't have to call them liars.

You do not need to respond with patience and courtesy, And if that's how you feel, Then just don't respond at all.
As I'm sure you were told when you were a child, If you have nothing nice to say, Don't say anything at all.

Peace to all.
People keep talking about bias, lies etc. They are putting rifle on your shoulder and keep firing in vain. It is not fair. Verses and understanding from Holy Quran have been given above. All Quran asks is to ponder on natural phenomenon but do not deny God.

From our point of view, those who deny God are biased. They claim the house has no owner while the owner is present and speaks and guided.

I cannot understand why so many God and religion denying people with very aggressive behaviour, are doing in 'religiousforums' anyway. They talk as if they are centre of universe.

Respect others.

 

[McBell]

You do realize that's how they see Evolution though, With subjectivity. That's usually their problem.

Repeating the same false information after being shown why the information is factually false is lying.

They don't think their information is false. And they don't take the 'evidence' they've been given because they don't trust the source (Atheists). They view Evolution with bias and I assume they think Atheists do too. Truth is subjective and they use that.

I gree, they are blatant hypocrites, but they are also liars.

Either way, I highly doubt they're lying wilfully. They just don't see what you see, Like I said, perspective.

Refusing to learn the truth and facts is nothing more than an attempted safety net.

I'm sorry but, Who gave you the super important mission to 'fix' creationists?
You don't have to listen to them and you certainly don't have to engage them.
And you definitely, definitely don't have to call them liars.

I disagree with the politically motivated attitude that you should not call a liar a liar.

You do not need to respond with patience and courtesy, And if that's how you feel, Then just don't respond at all.
As I'm sure you were told when you were a child, If you have nothing nice to say, Don't say anything at all.

I am no longer a child and liars need to be called liars, otherwise liars will think it is ok to lie.
Some of them in the name of their god.

 

[Sapiens]

Peace to all.
People keep talking about bias, lies etc. They are putting rifle on your shoulder and keep firing in vain. It is not fair. Verses and understanding from Holy Quran have been given above. All Quran asks is to ponder on natural phenomenon but do not deny God.

"Verses and understanding from Holy Quran have been given above." So what? Is that supposed to mean something? Now offer some external proof, then we have something to talk about.
"All Quran asks is to ponder on natural phenomenon but do not deny God. " then Quran is quite unbelievable, because no case to be made, beyond unsupported belief, that there is a god.

From our point of view, those who deny God are biased. They claim the house has no owner while the owner is present and speaks and guided.

You're view is nothing more than an attempt to shift the burden of proof. All the Christians could not do it with logic, now you expect to do it by fiat? Not bloody likely.

If there is a house, and the house has an owner, etc., then please produce the deed. Otherwise your claim is just that ... another unsupported claim.

I cannot understand why so many God and religion denying people with very aggressive behaviour, are doing in 'religiousforums' anyway. They talk as if they are centre of universe.

Respect others.

That's because you've not spent enough time on the receiving end of the sort of trash that you dish out. In fact, it is the religionists who see themselves at the center of the universe with everything rotating about them and their gods.

Your solution is to ask why we are permitted to be here and raise questions that you find uncomfortable. You'd rather have us silenced, that's why we tend to be a little aggressive in the face of such threats.

 

[psychoslice]

Yes they are fooling themselves, but they don't realize it, its just the way it works, not just religion, any ideology.

 

[Bunyip]

Yes they are fooling themselves, but they don't realize it, its just the way it works, not just religion, any ideology.

I think that is true of most followers, and entirely honest. But for those who teach creationist propoganda at schools it is a deliberate deception. The history of creationist proponants makes that very clear.

 

[Thana]

I am no longer a child and liars need to be called liars, otherwise liars will think it is ok to lie.
Some of them in the name of their god.

Yeah.. Only children think it's okay to lie. The rest of us get it, So your idea that you're going to 'educate' the liars is misguided.

I say God is real, I'm a Theist. Does that make me a liar in your eyes?
If not (which is the only reasonable answer btw ), Then apply that same understanding to Creationists.

 

[McBell]

Yeah.. Only children think it's okay to lie. The rest of us get it, So your idea that you're going to 'educate' the liars is misguided.

No, not educate them.
You cannot educate someone who refuses to be educated.
Why do they refuse to be educated?
Because then they have to admit they are liars.

See, the problem is with those like yourself who give the liars a free pass to lie.
I am merely calling the liars what they are, liars.

I say God is real, I'm a Theist. Does that make me a liar in your eyes?
If not (which is the only reasonable answer btw ), Then apply that same understanding to Creationists.

Again with an analogy that does not apply.
God cannot be proven either way.

 

[Thana]

No, not educate them.
You cannot educate someone who refuses to be educated.
Why do they refuse to be educated?
Because then they have to admit they are liars.

See, the problem is with those like yourself who give the liars a free pass to lie.
I am merely calling the liars what they are, liars.

Mmhmm, And is your calling them out going to change anything at all, Other than making them more hostile towards you?
Because that's the only result I see.

Again with an analogy that does not apply.
God cannot be proven either way.

It is a good analogy. They believe in their Creationists theories, Usually without proof, Similar to how I believe in God.
If asserting God is real doesn't make me a liar, Then asserting God created the earth exactly how it says in Genesis, doesn't make them liars either.

 

[Bunyip]

Mmhmm, And is your calling them out going to change anything at all, Other than making them more hostile towards you?
Because that's the only result I see.



It is a good analogy. They believe in their Creationists theories, Usually without proof, Similar to how I believe in God.
If asserting God is real doesn't make me a liar, Then asserting God created the earth exactly how it says in Genesis, doesn't make them liars either.

But atheism has no theory of creation.

 

[McBell]

Mmhmm, And is your calling them out going to change anything at all, Other than making them more hostile towards you?
Because that's the only result I see.

The calling them out is not for the liar, cause as you say, it will not change anything.
Calling them out is for those who are around the liar.

It is a good analogy. They believe in their Creationists theories, Usually without proof, Similar to how I believe in God.
If asserting God is real doesn't make me a liar, Then asserting God created the earth exactly how it says in Genesis, doesn't make them liars either.

Except I an talking about when they repeat blatantly false information as though it is the truth after being shown repeatedly they are factually wrong.

So no, not even close

 

[Thana]

The calling them out is not for the liar, cause as you say, it will not change anything.
Calling them out is for those who are around the liar.

Fair enough, Though I don't think that'd have much of an effect anyway. You could tell me right now, for example, that Bunyip is a liar. I wouldn't believe you, I'd read what he says and decide for myself.

Except I an talking about when they repeat blatantly false information as though it is the truth after being shown repeatedly they are factually wrong.

So no, not even close

What false information? There is no evidence to support Creation so I don't understand what they could be saying, Other than 'I believe God created the earth because the bible says so" etc.

 

[McBell]

Fair enough, Though I don't think that'd have much of an effect anyway. You could tell me right now, for example, that Bunyip is a liar. I wouldn't believe you, I'd read what he says and decide for myself.

*facepalm*

What false information? There is no evidence to support Creation so I don't understand what they could be saying, Other than 'I believe God created the earth because the bible says so" etc.

Creationists make all manner of blatantly false claims about evolution.
Most of them start off by calling their strawman evolution.

It is most interesting how when asked for evidence of Creation, a lot of creationists start spouting lies about evolution.

 

[gnostic]

Evolution would be a lie, if the theory was about the origin of first life, but anyone who actually studied and understand evolution know that evolution was never about the first life.

This scientific theory about first life on our planet, is called abiogenesis, not evolution.

And yet RF creationists continually argue against evolution, instead of abiogenesis, repeatedly giving false information. They are attacking strawman, either out of willful ignorance or out of deliberate lies.

But I suspected it is the later, since no one is that stupid that they can't learn. I believe that they deliberately lie to us in these related threads, out of fear and desperation.

 

[gnostic]

From our point of view, those who deny God are biased.

And you think people who believe in god, can't lie or be biased?

Are you really certain that Muslims don't tell lies?

Every time a Muslim who quoted verses from the Qur'an, and saying that Allah knew this before modern science, is spreading falsehood.

A number of modern Muslims have become jealous, because they are no longer leaders or pioneers in science have resorted to this usage of the Qur'an as scientific miracles or scientific signs, out of desperation. These Muslims are no different to the advocates of Intelligent Design, providing misinformation about science, to justified their religion.

Islamic scholars are not beyond telling lies or creating fables. Look at authors of the hadith, especially the one about Muhammad's Night Journey, in which the prophet rode all the way to Jerusalem, to visit a nonexistent mosque, and then flew to heaven, all of it while mounted on magical steed - Buraq - and all done in a single night. As theology and religious myth this is fine, but in reality, it is nonsensical delusion or fantasy.

It is a fable or myth, and rip-off from the 2nd book of Enoch, except enoch was guided to heaven by a couple of angels, not a steed. The 2 Enoch was the first, to write of Enoch's visit to seven heavens, and to meet god. It is also a rip-off earliest known myth in ancient Iraq, in which a man flew to heaven, called the Old Babylonian epic of Etana. Etana flew to heaven, on a large, talking eagle.

It is a story, a false narrative, and yet many Muslims believe in such mythological story as being true.

If I was to say that this story about Muhammad and Buraq to be false, would you really accuse me of lying or being biased?

 

[gnostic]

They don't think their information is false. And they don't take the 'evidence'they've been given because they don't trust the source (Atheists). They view Evolution with bias and I assume they think Atheists do too. Truth is subjective and they use that.

Science should be religious-free, and be free of argument between theists and atheists.

Atheism is only about not being theism - meaning - have no belief in existence of any deity. And nothing else.

Atheism doesn't equal to evolution, because atheism is not science.

Creationists keep using the same tired argument that atheism is somehow equated to evolution. They (creationists) ignored the fact that many who accepted evolution as being valid biological theory are religious people and theists, including Christians.

Even the current pope accepted valid scientific explanation about biodiversity.

And Charles Darwin wasn't an atheist when he wrote - On the Origin of Species (1859), and before that, when he was travelling and researching onboard HMS Beagle, during the first half of the 1830s. He was still a Christian during those time.

Darwin only began leaning towards agnosticism, later, because of his contemporary and friend, T.H. Huxley.

In his autobiography (1879), in which he wrote about his view on religion:

"I have never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God. – I think that generally ... an agnostic would be the most correct description of my state of mind."

So it is nonsense to view that evolution is work of an atheist, when Darwin himself say he wasn't an atheist.

 

[gnostic]

Oh, and what I wrote about evolution not being synonymous with evolution.

Atheism doesn't equal to evolution, because atheism is not science.

That's another thing that creationists (and some theists) lie about that too, or refused to learn the differences between the two. They (creationists) continuously identified evolutionists with atheists, and vice versa.

What a load of craps, they think of.

 

[DawudTalut]

......................................................... Look at authors of the hadith, especially the one about Muhammad's Night Journey, in which the prophet rode all the way to Jerusalem, to visit a nonexistent mosque, and then flew to heaven, all of it while mounted on magical steed - Buraq - and all done in a single night. As theology and religious myth this is fine, but in reality, it is nonsensical delusion or fantasy.

It is a fable or myth, and rip-off from the 2nd book of Enoch, except enoch was guided to heaven by a couple of angels, not a steed. The 2 Enoch was the first, to write of Enoch's visit to seven heavens, and to meet god. It is also a rip-off earliest known myth in ancient Iraq, in which a man flew to heaven, called the Old Babylonian epic of Etana. Etana flew to heaven, on a large, talking eagle.

It is a story, a false narrative, and yet many Muslims believe in such mythological story as being true.

If I was to say that this story about Muhammad and Buraq to be false, would you really accuse me of lying or being biased?

Peace be on all. Please calm down!

1-As you asked, I shall not say you are liar.
2-Yet I shall say you need more reading, which you are about to read.

" ....al-Isra and M`erāj are two separate incidents. The incident of M`erāj happened in 5th year of his prophethood at the time when the Holy Prophet sa was sleeping in Ka`aba. Whereas, the Isra incident happened in 11th year of Prophethood while the Holy Prophet sa was sleeping in his cousin Ummi Hānī’s ra home. The fact that he was sleeping in both cases clearly demonstrates that these incidents were spiritual and not physical......"

Journey of the Holy Prophet (saw) to Heaven | Islam Ahmadiyya



3- Ascension-Me’raj: Two Different Spiritual Night Journeys of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) with Deep Lessons.
Oct 14, 2013.
@ Ascension-Me’raj: Two Different Spiritual Night Journeys of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) with Deep Lessons. | ReligiousForums.com
(during RF transition, some material has not properly came to new version)


4- If previous people had similar experiences, it is possible because God is same. His revealed religion by evolution as per need and sphere of people. All Prophets were told to convey pay rights of One God and pay human rights. Details continued to evolve. Elijah was supposed to come similarly Jesus was too. According to Jesus - the Messiah, Elijah was John the Baptist, according to Ahmadiyya Muslim Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was Promised Messiah metaphorically Jesus and Mahdi. Allah told Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on all Prophets) when you are taking Bai'at (pledge) from believer, it is My Hand over believers hands...........So these metaphors have meanings and tells the closeness and love......There are several towns, similar human names etc in the world with similar names, surely these are not lies.

5- One sincerely thinks that decay in moral practices and drifting towards atheism has roots in various factors.

 

[Sapiens]

....

5- One sincerely thinks that decay in moral practices and drifting towards atheism has roots in various factors.

You would equate a decay in moral practices and drifting toward atheism? I suspect that a much better case could be made equating a decay in moral practices and the beheading of innocents by Muslims.

 

[DawudTalut]

You would equate a decay in moral practices and drifting toward atheism? I suspect that a much better case could be made equating a decay in moral practices and the beheading of innocents by Muslims.

Peace be on you.

It is already included in 'moral practices' (as they are usually practiced by religios ppl). Let me say in clear worlds too.

Holy Prophet (pbuh) had foretold'
".... a time will come when there will be left nothing of Islam except its name, nothing will be left of Quran except its words. In that era, mosques will be seen populated but they will be vacant of guidance. Their clergies will be the worst creature living the sky, dicords will generate from them and will return to them.......[ref:Mishkaat]...

There is news of groups of people who will misuse religion and powers to destroy humanity at large except those who would obey them, collectively they are called Djal.

Remedy:

Holy Prophet was shown 2 men with name Jesus. Once is Ascension as reddish, curly hairs and also Moses [their souls were shown as it was spiritual journey]

Second time, man Jesus was shown in dream to Holy Prophet. He saw that Jesus [with brown skin and straight hairs...One may plz note the difference in appearance in 2 men named Jesus.....It is because second coming of Jesus was to be in asia and is done according to Ahmadiyya Muslims in 1889 (alsilam.org) ].. Also Djal was seen making circuits around Kaba signifies a) its trouble making, b) it will learn truth eventually [another hadith tells that Djal will melt like salt with the prayer of second-Jesus]....(ref: various ahadith)

The whole news is rooted in Quran when it said:
[62:2] “Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth glorifies Allah, the Sovereign, the Holy, the Mighty, the Wise.”

[62:3] “He it is Who has raised among the unlettered (people) a Messenger from among themselves who recite unto them His Signs, and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and Wisdom though before that they were in manifest error.”

[62:4] “And (among) others of them who have not joined them. He is the Mighty, the Wise.”


Holy Prophet (pbuh) Explains:
Says Hazrat Abu Hurairah (may Allah be pleased with him) :
One day we were sitting with Holy Prophet when Surah Jumua (ch62) was revealed. I enquired from the Holy Prophet, “Who are the people to whom the words,
“And among others who have not yet joined them” refer?” Salman, the Persian was sitting among us. Upon my repeated asking him the same question the Holy Prophet put his hand on Salman and said, “If faith were to go up to the Pleiades, a man from these would surely find it.
[Bukhari]

Therefore the decay in muslims was foretold and remedy is foretold too that promised reformer (devotee of Holy Prophet ) will be sent for reformation, Hadith tells he is Promised Messiah Mahdi.

When he came with signs, many denied and fell prey to Djal (the evil ways of the time). Gradually they are learning and excepting the divine solution. That is why one apparently solitary voice of peace which started from remote town of Qadian, India in 1889 has now reached to all countries in 2014 with millions peaceful people under peaceful Khalifah of Promised Messiah and Mahdi.

Thereby one may read:
5- One sincerely thinks that decay in moral practices and drifting towards atheism has roots in various factors.

as

5- One sincerely thinks that decay in moral practices (in Muslims and others) and drifting towards atheism has roots in various factors.

Thanks.

 

[Sapiens]

What you fail to realize is that religion and conflict over religion is one of the major causes of strife in the world. Atheism as least holds out the hope of an end to that part of human strife and suffering.