The creator did it.

[SkepticThinker]

I can't comprehend why you diss the resources I took the time to put together? I have posted and will keep posting more well researched material, but it appears your way of dealing with the resources I present is not worthy of a response. I will respond to those who do seriously inquire.

The problem is that sites like the Institute for Creation Research use "arguments"and examples that have long ago been debunked. Plus, their mission statement points out that they stick to a strict, infallible, "completely authoritative," literal view of the Bible and that any natural explanations for the universe and for life are flat out false. They go on to state that angels and miracles are real, as though they've all been demonstrated, which of course, they have not. This is why people take issue with such sites.

Foundational Principles

 

[SkepticThinker]

The Atheist position that holds to the view that God does not exist cannot be possible because they would have to know everything that there is to know in the entire universe to defend such a position. And the weak come back is similar to your post...I don't have to prove a negative. We only ask that the atheist defend their position by reason not by proof...which will then lead them to the position of an agnostic.

My position as an atheist is, I don't have any evidence to demonstrate that the God you believe in exists and so I don't believe in that God. Do you have some?
We're not that different actually, because I don't think you believe in say, Ptah, do you?

Atheism is just a lack of belief in god(s).

 

[Rapture Era]

I don't think that will do any good. But we will see. He seems to think he understands the basics I went over. Tomorrow, or later today, we will see if he has a clue or not.

I wont have time today to go back and forth. If you could get more to your point it would be appreciated.

 

[Rapture Era]

In continuance,

The Problem is not in providing the information to you. The problem is the cognizant dissonance, and the presuppositional bias that prevents you from accepting the evidence. You simply do not want to know. You simply only want to believe. Evolution clearly does not violate the 2nd LTD, yet you keep parroting that it does, even though you are completely wrong. How does any logic account for this behavior? This is why Religions should never be taught to any developing young minds. I am positive there would be at least one taker, if a religious leader told his congregation, that if they jumped out of a two story window they would be held up by the hand of God. We have seen examples of this cultist behavior before.

It is best that you preach only to the choir and not to scientist, or rationalists. Scientific speculation is based on real facts and data, and is open to peer review and other checks and balances. You have absolutely Zero objective evidence to support any Godly claim at all. You have no idea whether God exists, speaks to you, or has demonstrated anything. You have no way to objectively distinguish between natural biological evolution, and divine biological creation(design). You simply believe that "God did it all", and that's all folks. You are NOT a God, and no matter how much you have convinced yourself, you are not endowed with special knowledge far beyond the limits of mortal man. If anything exist outside of the natural forces, where would it be(certainly not in the macro world)? Where would a heaven or hell be? Even dark matter is affected by gravity, and dark energy accelerates the expansion of the Universe. All the matter and energy in the Universe is accounted for, and does something.Including, obeying the universal laws of cause and effect. Anything added to a physical universe would cause a cascade of changes, leading to the eventual collapse of the entire Universe(since it is so fine-tuned). We are still here, existing in the past, present and the future. Therefore, nothing exist, or can exist outside of the four fundamental forces of nature in OUR Universe.

We not only have different world views(regarding religious beliefs), but our cognitive processing of information is also different. Your cognition of reality is based on conceptual bias, mine is based on perceptual bias. My bias is simply more reliable, than simple faith. You fail to understand that 99.999% of all life that has ever existed on this planet, were failures. That tiny percentage of survivors is what we see today. Life is the result of trial and error. We are the product of the survival genes passed onto us, only by the past survivors. Therefore, life wasn't created by magic.

So your answer to how do you know, is just "God told me so"? Or, because "the Bible tells me so"? Do you think that quote-mining verses from the Bible is evidence for the existence of God? How does God reveal this information to you, so that you know it can only be from your God, and not from over 4000 other Gods? Is God a He or a She? Do you believe that the Bible is errant, and the words from a God? How do you explain the problem of evil? Never mind, the questions are all rhetorical, since you would need to be a God to answer them.

I can see we will never agree on these things and that's fine. When the time comes however, and it will, that is when all of us will realize whether or not what we have been taught is true or not. When we want to know something, we typically go to the one(s) whom we believe is the authority in that area, would you agree? You are slamming me for saying the reason I know, "God told me so"? Or, because "the Bible tells me so"? Yes, the biblical God is my authority on how to understand our origins and a proper understanding of ourselves, who we are, how we got here, what our purpose is and where we are going when we die.
"How does God reveal this information to you, so that you know it can only be from your God?"
Again, he reveals this to us through the scriptures that he is the Lord and there are no others gods besides him. He is the only God who became incarnate and lived on the earth performing many miracles in the 30+ years he was here, that could have only been performed by an omnipotent God in which he clearly demonstrated.
So let me ask you, who were and are the authorities you trust for truth that led you to this point in your life?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can see we will never agree on these things and that's fine. When the time comes however, and it will, that is when all of us will realize whether or not what we have been taught is true or not. When we want to know something, we typically go to the one(s) whom we believe is the authority in that area, would you agree? You are slamming me for saying the reason I know, "God told me so"? Or, because "the Bible tells me so"? Yes, the biblical God is my authority on how to understand our origins and a proper understanding of ourselves, who we are, how we got here, what our purpose is and where we are going when we die.
"How does God reveal this information to you, so that you know it can only be from your God?"
Again, he reveals this to us through the scriptures that he is the Lord and there are no others gods besides him. He is the only God who became incarnate and lived on the earth performing many miracles in the 30+ years he was here, that could have only been performed by an omnipotent God in which he clearly demonstrated.
So let me ask you, who were and are the authorities you trust for truth that led you to this point in your life?

How do you know the scriptures are true?

 

[Rapture Era]

How do you know the scriptures are true?

Read Hhr's post #803.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Read Hhr's post #803.

How does that address my question, exactly?

 

[Rapture Era]

How does that address my question, exactly?

How do you know the scriptures are true?

This is a first step in knowing why we believe the scriptures to be true, wasn't that your question? So I'm giving you something that HhR posted to address your question. Are you not really interested in the answer to your question?

 

[SkepticThinker]

This is a first step in knowing why we believe the scriptures to be true, wasn't that your question? So I'm giving you something that HhR posted to address your question. Are you not really interested in the answer to your question?

How does that post help me determine whether or not the scriptures are true?

 

[He has Risen!]

My position as an atheist is, I don't have any evidence to demonstrate that the God you believe in exists and so I don't believe in that God. Do you have some?
We're not that different actually, because I don't think you believe in say, Ptah, do you?

Atheism is just a lack of belief in god(s).

Wrong, wrong and again wrong...
Google...
atheism-disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

I fall into the category of those who do believe in a god, you on the other hand fall into the category of disbelief or lack belief in a god.
We are at polar opposite sides of the god question. While other deists and theists can be on my side of the god question, you are defiantly not. Trying to lump us all in the same boat as you claim would mean that we are all atheist which then would make the term atheist meaningless.

 

[He has Risen!]

The problem is that sites like the Institute for Creation Research use "arguments"and examples that have long ago been debunked. Plus, their mission statement points out that they stick to a strict, infallible, "completely authoritative," literal view of the Bible and that any natural explanations for the universe and for life are flat out false. They go on to state that angels and miracles are real, as though they've all been demonstrated, which of course, they have not. This is why people take issue with such sites.

Foundational Principles

Thank you for that link,
But what you fail to understand with your narrow view of science is that it should be open to the best explanations of what is being studied....

Google,
science=the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Even though it uses the words physical and natural,...it is describing what is being studied, but that does not lead us to dismiss an Intelligent agent that is the cause. You might like to watch the Netflix series "One Strange Planet" because it really does show many finely tuned systems and amazing facts about our unique home, planet Earth.

 

[He has Risen!]

As I have stated before, huff, puff, avoid and bluff, seems to be your motto. Are there any other tricks you can do, that can't be anticipated? Can't you address anything directly, without more site deflections?

We don't know who the authors of the gospels were. They were all anonymous and far too old to have written the Gospels. Their names were only later added in the 2nd century, as being the authors of the Gospels in the New Testament. This would have been 50 years after the gospels were written, and up to 120 years after the Resurrection of Christ. Most Religious Scholars believes that the Gospels were written by a Jewish religious student. In Mark Jesus is not interested in talking about Himself at all. But in John, he ONLY talks about Himself and His Divinity. This creates an historical problem. Why is Jesus's claims of divinity only described in the last Book of the Gospels? Did Matthew, Mark, and Luke think Jesus claims of divinity were not important enough to even mention? Many Religious scholars believe that all the Gospels were written by a Jewish Religious student. All we know for certain, is that the Bible is a book of fiction, stories, superstitions, and fables. And, that it was written, compiled, edited, contracted, interpreted, and revised by man, not by God. We know for certain that many of the stories written in the Bible, were taken almost word for word, from stories written in other books that predate the Bible. We know that the Bible was written to provide the only science to the ignorant(ancient myths and legends), to allay their fear of death, to reflect the history and the people of the time, to control how the people think and behave, and to claim that it is the only purpose for their lives. So, again, in your own words, what evidence can you deposit, that can demonstrates that at least one of the historical Jesus was the Son of a God? Or will you simply keep referring me to another creation listed site? You really need to read the Bible yourself, before listening to those who claim they have.

Are you saying that my opening statement was only gibberish to you? I suppose when "God did it all" is your only mantra, everything else must sound like utter gibberish to you. I also suspect that the bar for critical thinking will be inversely proportional to what you call gibberish. The more you critically think, the less things sound like gibberish. Simply put, "God did it", was not the claim of any of the videos I presented. But by directing me to an internet site/video, and citing this silly cartoon to speak for you, does certainly validate my claim that you can't speak for yourself. Not once do you refute, contrast, or address the logic or the videos I post. The videos were all trying to offer a rational explanation, by demonstrating how the facts and evidence available, could be involved in the origin of the first life.They don't simply try to obfuscate or diminish the reliability of the scientific method of inquiry. It is almost as if you simply don't want it to be so. Maybe you can add your own objective evidence to support your own rational hypothesis? Somehow, I doubt you can.

I am the one who put the post together which included the books I have read on this topic and not just internet sites like you. Give me some books that you have read in regards to the authors of the NT and I will look into those, until then do not hand me the line that I am not doing my due diligence.
Nonsense remains nonsense even when talked by world-famous scientists.

Due diligence is the investigation or exercise of care that a reasonable person is expected to take.

 

[Bear Wild]

Thank you for that link,
But what you fail to understand with your narrow view of science is that it should be open to the best explanations of what is being studied....

Google,
science=the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Even though it uses the words physical and natural,...it is describing what is being studied, but that does not lead us to dismiss an Intelligent agent that is the cause. You might like to watch the Netflix series "One Strange Planet" because it really does show many finely tuned systems and amazing facts about our unique home, planet Earth.

Intelligent design has been proven false with flaws that are unexplainable from real evidence of a designer's existence to the impossibility to show how the designer continuously altered life on earth. All those that propose intelligent design can do is misquote real scientific evidence which there are so many examples of and state unsupported opinion as a desperate attempt to persuade those who do not understand the scientific evidence then slip their god in in the end. Time to come clean with the imaginary intelligent designer.

 

[JChnsc19]

It would appear that physicists, cosmologists & virtual particles disagree with the "something can't come from nothing" statement. What scientists specifically have repeatedly demonstrated this?

What Is The Physics Of Nothing?

 

[JChnsc19]

I am the one who put the post together which included the books I have read on this topic and not just internet sites like you. Give me some books that you have read in regards to the authors of the NT and I will look into those, until then do not hand me the line that I am not doing my due diligence.
Nonsense remains nonsense even when talked by world-famous scientists.

Due diligence is the investigation or exercise of care that a reasonable person is expected to take.

Nailed by David Fitzgerald is outstanding. And any book by Richard Carrier. Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am the one who put the post together which included the books I have read on this topic and not just internet sites like you. Give me some books that you have read in regards to the authors of the NT and I will look into those, until then do not hand me the line that I am not doing my due diligence.
Nonsense remains nonsense even when talked by world-famous scientists.

Due diligence is the investigation or exercise of care that a reasonable person is expected to take.

Spare me the intellectual posturing and false bravado. You need to bring more than just attitude to the table. I'm far too old in the tooth to be affected by any latent innuendos or mental intimidations. If the source of my information comes from thousands of internet sites, videos, books, research, or from inside a Chinese fortune cookie, it is all irrelevant. Address the issues, and not the source.

Were the authors of the Gospels anonymous before the 2nd century AD, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospel names added in the 2nd century, or not?
Were the Gospels written 50-70 years after the death of Christ, or not?
Were the accounts of Jesus and His teachings consistent among the Gospels, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels stories even consistent, or not
Were the authors of the gospels dependent on the made-up stories of Mathew, or not?
How did the Authors of the Gospels know about baby Jesus, His personal quests and tribulations? Did they just make it up, or not?
How can you be a descendent from King David, and be born from a virgin. You can't be both?
Did Jesus only speak about himself and His divinity only in the Book of John, and not in any of the other Books?
Did Mathew plagiarize about 90% of the Gospel of Mark, or not?
Who hired Mathew to write a Gospel?
Did Jesus have brothers and sisters(James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas), as attested to in the Gospels, or not?

There are many more inconsistencies, plagiarisms, omissions, and make-believe stories, all written in the Gospels of the New Testament. "Who would have thought that the “gospel truth” would be so hard to find in the gospels?". You might start your quest for any semblance of "due diligence"(I don't remember using that line), by addressing the above issues, or issues revealed in the below listed sites, videos, and books. Maybe then you will began to understand that the Gospels were meant to be only extended parables, not historical facts.

Gospel - Wikipedia
Debunking Christianity: Who the Hell Hired Matthew to Write a Gospel?
The Story Of The Storytellers - The Emergence Of The Four Gospel Canon | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS
https://strangenotions.com/myths-lies-or-truth-can-we-really-trust-the-gospels/

"Truth and Historicity", by Richard Campbell.
"On the Historicity of Jesus: Why we might have reason to doubt", by Richard Carrier
"Gospel Fiction", and "Who wrote the Gospels", by Randel Helms
"Hidden Gospel: How the Search for Jesus Lost its Way", by Philip Jenkins

Hope this helps you in your quest for truth and intellectual honesty.

 

[JChnsc19]

Spare me the intellectual posturing and false bravado. You need to bring more than just attitude to the table. I'm far too old in the tooth to be affected by any latent innuendos or mental intimidations. If the source of my information comes from thousands of internet sites, videos, books, research, or from inside a Chinese fortune cookie, it is all irrelevant. Address the issues, and not the source.

Were the authors of the Gospels anonymous before the 2nd century AD, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospel names added in the 2nd century, or not?
Were the Gospels written 50-70 years after the death of Christ, or not?
Were the accounts of Jesus and His teachings consistent among the Gospels, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels stories even consistent, or not
Were the authors of the gospels dependent on the made-up stories of Mathew, or not?
How did the Authors of the Gospels know about baby Jesus, His personal quests and tribulations? Did they just make it up, or not?
How can you be a descendent from King David, and be born from a virgin. You can't be both?
Did Jesus only speak about himself and His divinity only in the Book of John, and not in any of the other Books?
Did Mathew plagiarize about 90% of the Gospel of Mark, or not?
Who hired Mathew to write a Gospel?
Did Jesus have brothers and sisters(James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas), as attested to in the Gospels, or not?

There are many more inconsistencies, plagiarisms, omissions, and make-believe stories, all written in the Gospels of the New Testament. "Who would have thought that the “gospel truth” would be so hard to find in the gospels?". You might start your quest for any semblance of "due diligence"(I don't remember using that line), by addressing the above issues, or issues revealed in the below listed sites, videos, and books. Maybe then you will began to understand that the Gospels were meant to be only extended parables, not historical facts.

Gospel - Wikipedia
Debunking Christianity: Who the Hell Hired Matthew to Write a Gospel?
The Story Of The Storytellers - The Emergence Of The Four Gospel Canon | From Jesus To Christ | FRONTLINE | PBS
https://strangenotions.com/myths-lies-or-truth-can-we-really-trust-the-gospels/

"Truth and Historicity", by Richard Campbell.
"On the Historicity of Jesus: Why we might have reason to doubt", by Richard Carrier
"Gospel Fiction", and "Who wrote the Gospels", by Randel Helms
"Hidden Gospel: How the Search for Jesus Lost its Way", by Philip Jenkins

Hope this helps you in your quest for truth and intellectual honesty.

Preach brother preach!!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Were the authors of the Gospels anonymous before the 2nd century AD, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospel names added in the 2nd century, or not?
Were the Gospels written 50-70 years after the death of Christ, or not?
Were the accounts of Jesus and His teachings consistent among the Gospels, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ, or not?
Were the authors of the Gospels stories even consistent, or not
Were the authors of the gospels dependent on the made-up stories of Mathew, or not?
How did the Authors of the Gospels know about baby Jesus, His personal quests and tribulations? Did they just make it up, or not?
How can you be a descendent from King David, and be born from a virgin. You can't be both?
Did Jesus only speak about himself and His divinity only in the Book of John, and not in any of the other Books?
Did Mathew plagiarize about 90% of the Gospel of Mark, or not?
Who hired Mathew to write a Gospel?
Did Jesus have brothers and sisters(James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas), as attested to in the Gospels, or not?

...versus...

There are many more inconsistencies, plagiarisms, omissions, and make-believe stories, all written in the Gospels of the New Testament.

excuse me, but you posted no inconsistencies found within the Bible...only questions raised by skeptics.

It would behoove you to read comments from Sirs Frederic Kenyon and Isaac Newton regarding the Bible. Their POV’s are still relevant to this day...because the wording in Scripture hasn’t changed since then. Still the same.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I can see we will never agree on these things and that's fine. When the time comes however, and it will, that is when all of us will realize whether or not what we have been taught is true or not. When we want to know something, we typically go to the one(s) whom we believe is the authority in that area, would you agree? You are slamming me for saying the reason I know, "God told me so"? Or, because "the Bible tells me so"? Yes, the biblical God is my authority on how to understand our origins and a proper understanding of ourselves, who we are, how we got here, what our purpose is and where we are going when we die.
"How does God reveal this information to you, so that you know it can only be from your God?"
Again, he reveals this to us through the scriptures that he is the Lord and there are no others gods besides him. He is the only God who became incarnate and lived on the earth performing many miracles in the 30+ years he was here, that could have only been performed by an omnipotent God in which he clearly demonstrated.
So let me ask you, who were and are the authorities you trust for truth that led you to this point in your life?

Let me first state that the authority that I choose to trust for certainty(not truth), are my senses and my ability to reason(inductive and deductive). Depending on any other authorities has always proved unreliable and inconsistent. As a child the characteristics of death have not changed, since the first funeral I went to with my parents.

You are blatantly making claims of knowledge that no human could possibly have. You have no idea what happens after death. You can't even demonstrate if the power of prayer works. You can't demonstrate any mechanism that demonstrates how you could know if a God exist, His nature, or how you can have a personal relationship with. You have no idea what will happen after we die. We all have experience death before. It is no different from being non-existent. What makes you think you will know anything after you pass on? I sincerely hope that you are right, but there is just no evidence to suggest that you are.

Making religious claims that you can't support(outside of the Bible), is simply proselytizing. If God is God, He/she would easily know how to convince me. You keep claiming that Atheists do not believe in the existence of God, or that Atheist don't believe that a God can exist. What you and people like avoid like the plague, is the other half of the comments. Atheists do not believe in the existence of God, because there is no evidence to support that belief. It would be in your interest to provide that evidence, right? It is only my personal belief that a God Can't exist anywhere within our Universe. If He did, the Universe would collapse. If a God DID exist in our Universe, He would also be easily detected. This is my personal belief, not the general Atheistic belief. So next time when you state Atheists simple don't believe in a God, please include their reason why. This would avoid telling only half-truths, and being intellectually dishonest.

 

[Subduction Zone]

...versus...


excuse me, but you posted no inconsistencies found within the Bible...only questions raised by skeptics.

It would behoove you to read comments from Sirs Frederic Kenyon and Isaac Newton regarding the Bible. Their POV’s are still relevant to this day...because the wording in Scripture hasn’t changed since then. Still the same.

Even the brightest people can be subject to cognitive dissonance. Especially when it comes to superstitious or religious beliefs. The inconsistencies can be found all throughout the Bible. Here is just one site that shows the Bible is full of them:

BibViz Project - Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized