The cross= a negative symbol?

[Iti oj]

Or you are spiritually blinded by satan... But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4;3-4

the devil is never anymore evil when he appears to be the angle of light...

 

[Iti oj]

He put it a bit indelicately, but he does have a point. As soon as you declare that your god is beyond your understanding, you've implicitly declared that you don't have the resources to tell your god apart from other supernatural things that would also be beyond your understanding.

What's God to a human being? An impressively powerful supernatural entity that is good. What's Satan to a human being? An impressively powerful supernatural entity that is evil.

If, when it suits you, you argue that God is doing good even when it seems evil to humans, then you take away any way for a human to distinguish between God and Satan. Both could conceivably wield miracles well beyond human imagination, so the only way you could distinguish them is by the quality of their actions... but InChrist's argument implies that we can't assume that the apparent quality of God's actions corresponds to the actual quality of God's actions.

So... when confronted with a supernatural entity that you think might be God or might be Satan, how would you go about telling the difference?

I wish i posted this :clap:clap

 

[The Sum of Awe]

That's not Trinitarian. It's... something else. In the Trinitarian formulation, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate persons, and all co-equal, and are each God individually but also God when taken together.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity defines God as three divine persons or hypostases:[1] the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. The three persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature".[2] A nature is what one is, while a person is who one is.[3][4][5]

In Trinitarian doctrine, God exists as three persons or hypostases, but is one being, that is, has but a single divine nature.[97]

Wikipedia - Trinity

That doesn't make him altruistic; it makes him masochistic: "I needlessly hurt myself to show I love you." It would be psychotic.

It wasn't to show he loved them, even though it did. It was primarily to save them, I doubt a Christ would care if everyone considered him to be a good person, as long as the sacrifice for their safety from sin is complete.

Because nothing is necessary to an omnipotent God, so if Jesus' suffering is necessary, it would only be because God made it necessary. God could have chosen a suffering-free option, but instead chose this one.

I'd say it's necessary for many cases; For one thing - for man to know the truth. For another - to show humans the greatest sacrifice to take place in a replica, humanized form, so they can use it as an example, to learn from it.

 

[InChrist]

Quoting the bible to those who do not believe it is like quoting lord of the rings to validate a point.

It may seem that way on the surface, but God's inspired word spiritually powerful.

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 

[InChrist]

He put it a bit indelicately, but he does have a point. As soon as you declare that your god is beyond your understanding, you've implicitly declared that you don't have the resources to tell your god apart from other supernatural things that would also be beyond your understanding.

What's God to a human being? An impressively powerful supernatural entity that is good. What's Satan to a human being? An impressively powerful supernatural entity that is evil.

If, when it suits you, you argue that God is doing good even when it seems evil to humans, then you take away any way for a human to distinguish between God and Satan. Both could conceivably wield miracles well beyond human imagination, so the only way you could distinguish them is by the quality of their actions... but InChrist's argument implies that we can't assume that the apparent quality of God's actions corresponds to the actual quality of God's actions.

So... when confronted with a supernatural entity that you think might be God or might be Satan, how would you go about telling the difference?

You tell the difference by asking God the Creator of heaven and earth for wisdom and truth.

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 1:5

 

[Looncall]

You tell the difference by asking God the Creator of heaven and earth for wisdom and truth.

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 1:5

Really? So how come so many, even the religious, live in misery, disease etc? It is to laugh.

 

[InChrist]

Really? So how come so many, even the religious, live in misery, disease etc? It is to laugh.

Well, you question does not really relate to one seeking wisdom from God. But besides that, misery , disease, etc. are the conditions many live with because we live in a fallen world under the curse of sin.

 

[davidthegreek]

When my daughter broke her arm at school, they took her to a catholic-run hospital. The crucifixes they had hanging everywhere upset her.

It boggles the mind that some people think that an image of someone being tortured to death is a good thing to display. Urrrrrgh! Yuck!

I wonder if these crucifixes desensitize christians to human suffering.

some people embrace suffering as a blessing from God. According to their theory it teaches us to depend on him. While This may have some truth in it. Most people who do that seem to be either mazochists or sadists. But not all of them.

 

[Infinitum]

I find myself thinking more about the how than the why here. The Christian cross (crucifix) wasn't the first cross to become a religious symbol. Two worth a mention are the Sun cross and the Ankh. Both later evolved into Christian symbols: the Celtic cross and the Coptic ankh/cross. With these around it becomes more evident why early Christians favoured the cross above some other Christian symbol. The negative connotation with torture was less than the one by the previous crosses and the two symbols merged into one - quite possibly retaining some of the original pagan thought.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I find myself thinking more about the how than the why here. The Christian cross (crucifix) wasn't the first cross to become a religious symbol. Two worth a mention are the Sun cross and the Ankh. Both later evolved into Christian symbols: the Celtic cross and the Coptic ankh/cross. With these around it becomes more evident why early Christians favoured the cross above some other Christian symbol. The negative connotation with torture was less than the one by the previous crosses and the two symbols merged into one - quite possibly retaining some of the original pagan thought.

Good point. There's also the Chi-Rho, which had been a Roman symbol of luck, but was adopted by Constantine as a Christian symbol.

 

[Iti oj]

Good point. There's also the Chi-Rho, which had been a Roman symbol of luck, but was adopted by Constantine as a Christian symbol.

Links please

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Links please

Kind of surprised to see someone who hasn't seen it before. It's not a bad thing, just unexpected thing:

 

[Infinitum]

If I saw that and no one had told me it was Roman and not Christian, I would instantly think it's Christian. That's really interesting.

 

[Avoice]

The cross has gone through at least 3 phases in my life.

1) It was not thought of in my young life. Jesus' love for us and God's love for Jesus and us was the main focus of my life.

2) Growing up in the 60's and 70's, there was a negative connotation to the cross. Some were accusing Jesus of suicide and saying that those who believed in Him and wanted to live up to His desires for us was suicidal. In the mid to late 70's, I found and obscure symbol of Christ from the middle ages and preferred wearing that to wearing a symbol of His death.

3) I went through a phase where the cross meant believer to me and almost no one else around me.

4) I have become an iconoclast. The torture stake on which Jesus was hung for holding fast to Jehovah's way on this earth became nothing more than that. It is Jesus' courage and Love that mean the most to me now and there is no symbol for those qualities.

 

[Desert Snake]

Hi, I'm also a non-churchgoer, I have to say, I don't think I'd wear a cross at this point either, not really because I think it has really negative connotations, it just doesn't quite represent the teachings in the NT, as far as I'm concerned. I think it's just a personal choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You tell the difference by asking God the Creator of heaven and earth for wisdom and truth.

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Matthew 7:7-8

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 1:5

And you think you can discern wisdom and truth? You're immune to being fooled by Satan? How did you manage this?

 

[RJ50]

I don't think poor old Satan can be an worse than the Biblical portrayal of the deity.

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't think poor old Satan can be an worse than the Biblical portrayal of the deity.

Do you feel that way about all religions, or just the Abrahamic ones... because, you know, any religion with a deity would have the same philosophical quandry that the Abrahamic ones do.

 

[RJ50]

Do you feel that way about all religions, or just the Abrahamic ones... because, you know, any religion with a deity would have the same philosophical quandry that the Abrahamic ones do.

I am of the opinion that ALL religions are human creations including Christianity, the one with which I am most familiar. Gods, devils, demons, angels etc only exist in the human mind and are not external to it, imo.

 

[Desert Snake]

Kind of surprised to see someone who hasn't seen it before. It's not a bad thing, just unexpected thing:

I was in college the first time I learned what that symbol meant. That being said I already knew of various mythological pantheons and had read other religious works/commentary..sometimes it's just a matter of what one reads

this thread was more about just throwing out ideas, analyzing the symbols we use