The 'cruel God' belief.........

[Scott1]

Respectfully, I am addressing the God of the Tanach as I understand it - not your faith or anybody elses faith.

Hmmm... I could have sworn you wrote "What we are doing is characterizing the God constructed by the Abrahamic religions." Oh well... guess not.

What does not require honest effort is pretending that the Problem of Evil is nothing more than the musing of hapless atheists.

You are quite right... hapless theists wrestle with the issue as well.

 

[JerryL]

No, that is what "are some concrete acts - such as fornication - that it is always wrong to choose" means.

What do you believe fornication to mean BTW (I know it as sex with protitutes, "fornic" being latin for "arch", which was the symbol of a brothel).

Humanity that is oriented away from God is disordered.

This doesn't seem to be a raw act, as it requires a specific entity to conduct it (humanity). It seems more a condition.

Correct.

Is infanticide objectively evil? Or can infanticide be good?

Actually, you've given me one objectively evil act (fornication), let's explore that before we muddy the waters with too many topics at once.

 

[Scott1]

What do you believe fornication to mean BTW (I know it as sex with protitutes, "fornic" being latin for "arch", which was the symbol of a brothel).

Do you really need this question answered? Have any of your questions or my answers given you ANY insight into "the cruel God belief" (the topic of this thread) or the problem of evil in general? I don't think so.... it should have been clear after the definition of evil, but I guess not.

I would be happy to give a class on Christian ethics if you'd like... just pop on over to the Roman Catholic sub-forum and we'll have a go at it...

Actually, you've given me one objectively evil act (fornication), let's explore that before we muddy the waters with too many topics at once.

Sure... as soon as you can explain how understanding human acts will help you understand God.

 

[JerryL]

Do you really need this question answered? Have any of your questions or my answers given you ANY insight into "the cruel God belief" (the topic of this thread) or the problem of evil in general? I don't think so.... it should have been clear after the definition of evil, but I guess not.

Yes, I really need this quesion answered, and I really need this question answered in direct relation to the topic. (Actually, I suppose whether I need it depends on what the answer is).

You've asserted that fornication is objectively evil. I need to know what fornication is or I risk equivocating your position.

Sure... as soon as you can explain how understanding human acts will help you understand God.

Answer the question and you may find out. What is fornication?

 

[michel]

Yes, I really need this quesion answered, and I really need this question answered in direct relation to the topic. (Actually, I suppose whether I need it depends on what the answer is).

You've asserted that fornication is objectively evil. I need to know what fornication is or I risk equivocating your position.

Answer the question and you may find out. What is fornication?

fornication http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fornication c.1300, from O.Fr. fornication, from L.L. fornicationem (nom. fornicatio), from fornicari "fornicate," from L. fornix (gen. fornicis) "brothel," originally "arch, vaulted chamber" (Roman prostitutes commonly solicited from under the arches of certain buildings), from fornus "oven of arched or domed shape." Strictly, "voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman;" extended in the Bible to adulteryWhich is pretty near to the definition you gave Jerry - but note the 'adultery' bit.

 

[Whitsuntide]

Is there a chance an omniscient God set the stage and put all in motion, and doesn't know how it's going to turn out?
Seems to me, if I was the omniscient creator of all, this would be the only way to make it remotely interesting.

 

[Runt]

I had similar thoughts, Whitsuntide, when I believed in a thinking, planning God. I thought: "It must be rather boring, being omniscient and omnipotent. Maybe God created the universe as a diversion, as an experiment, and actually created it so that he wouldn't be able to know everything, and wouldn't be able to solve every problem."

For a while this is how I tried to deal with the idea of suffering. I thought: "God is not cruel so much as bored. It is like me writing a story and doing horrible things to my characters--making their love lives fall apart, putting them through adventures that bring them disaster and injury--with no concept that, for my characters, the story might be real."

Eventually I moved onto a second theory. I thought: "Perhaps God isn't really omniscient and omnipotent, and so this thing we call 'existence' is just as confusing and sometimes messed up for God as it is for us... only on a much greater scale. So perhaps God is not cruel, but simply imperfect. Perhaps God is learning, even as we are..."

Then another, even a more radical idea: "Perhaps God is having a dream right now--no, a nightmare--and we are it."

Eventually the most comforting conclusion I came up with is that there is no thinking, feeling God. Instead, there are a system of natural laws that allow existence to be what existance is, and these laws are not "cruel" or "sympathetic" or even "conscious"... they just are. Call these laws "God" if you will. Or "Tao". Or "Universe". Or simply natural law.

 

[martha]

As a follower of the Catholic faith, I will most likely be excommunicated for my next statement.

I do not believe with certainty that God knows everything before it happens. I think He acts in the moment. I think He is just as surprised as we are at the catastrophies that befall man. Yes I think He knows better than we do that there is a force larger in nature than us. But I also believe that He must be thinking to Himself, " Why in the world you humans desire to settle in a land that is prone to destruction." Don't you all think that it is ill advised to live in tornado alley? Is it not gambling when some choose to live in an earthquake zone? We are testing fate, gambling with the odds!

Good gracious, if you want to live in an area that is prone to disaster then don't point the finger at God! Take responsibility for you own choice of where you live. The people in California have been warned about the Big Earthquake that is coming ,for years. Do you think they are moving out in droves? No! When that big earthquake hits, and it will, this will be called another disaster, another tragedy. Once again the government will be called upon to help and ridiculed for not having done enough. I call upon you to think of the people who live in the targeted areas of destruction. What about their choice to stay? The city of New Orleans was built below sea level in a hurricane zone. The only phrase that comes to my mind is, " Duh?" " What were you thinking when you decided to live there?" Let me say here that I truly have great saddness for their situation, and I know that sometimes financial concerns lead one to stay in a certain area.

If you live in an area that is prone to destruction, then you best be prepared in advance for the final outcome.

 

[JerryL]

Actually, I think I'm gonna short-cut my answer:

God saves who he chooses to save. This means that many are condemned to eternal suffering because God feels like it. If a better example can be made of cruel, I dont' know what it is.

 

[Scott1]

What is fornication?

Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman.

Next.

 

[michel]

I had similar thoughts, Whitsuntide, when I believed in a thinking, planning God. I thought: "It must be rather boring, being omniscient and omnipotent. Maybe God created the universe as a diversion, as an experiment, and actually created it so that he wouldn't be able to know everything, and wouldn't be able to solve every problem."

For a while this is how I tried to deal with the idea of suffering. I thought: "God is not cruel so much as bored. It is like me writing a story and doing horrible things to my characters--making their love lives fall apart, putting them through adventures that bring them disaster and injury--with no concept that, for my characters, the story might be real."

Eventually I moved onto a second theory. I thought: "Perhaps God isn't really omniscient and omnipotent, and so this thing we call 'existence' is just as confusing and sometimes messed up for God as it is for us... only on a much greater scale. So perhaps God is not cruel, but simply imperfect. Perhaps God is learning, even as we are..."

Then another, even a more radical idea: "Perhaps God is having a dream right now--no, a nightmare--and we are it."

Eventually the most comforting conclusion I came up with is that there is no thinking, feeling God. Instead, there are a system of natural laws that allow existence to be what existance is, and these laws are not "cruel" or "sympathetic" or even "conscious"... they just are. Call these laws "God" if you will. Or "Tao". Or "Universe". Or simply natural law.

Runt, do you have these episodes often ?............I am a bit worried about your mental..........:biglaugh: Wow! You think either weirder things than I do.........

Are you sure you are not having a nightmare about God having a nightmare about.......

As a follower of the Catholic faith, I will most likely be excommunicated for my next statement.

I do not believe with certainty that God knows everything before it happens. I think He acts in the moment. I think He is just as surprised as we are at the catastrophies that befall man. Yes I think He knows better than we do that there is a force larger in nature than us. But I also believe that He must be thinking to Himself, " Why in the world you humans desire to settle in a land that is prone to destruction." Don't you all think that it is ill advised to live in tornado alley? Is it not gambling when some choose to live in an earthquake zone? We are testing fate, gambling with the odds!

Good gracious, if you want to live in an area that is prone to disaster then don't point the finger at God! Take responsibility for you own choice of where you live. The people in California have been warned about the Big Earthquake that is coming ,for years. Do you think they are moving out in droves? No! When that big earthquake hits, and it will, this will be called another disaster, another tragedy. Once again the government will be called upon to help and ridiculed for not having done enough. I call upon you to think of the people who live in the targeted areas of destruction. What about their choice to stay? The city of New Orleans was built below sea level in a hurricane zone. The only phrase that comes to my mind is, " Duh?" " What were you thinking when you decided to live there?" Let me say here that I truly have great saddness for their situation, and I know that sometimes financial concerns lead one to stay in a certain area.

If you live in an area that is prone to destruction, then you best be prepared in advance for the final outcome.

I couldn't agree more; of course we must feel sorrow for the deaths - but people have a resposability for themselves.:clap

 

[JerryL]

Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman.

So someone having intercourse with someone who was not their wife would be objectively evil/sinfule (whatever)?

 

[Scott1]

So someone having intercourse with someone who was not their wife would be objectively evil/sinfule (whatever)?

Or someone having intercourse with someone who was not their husband... yes... sinful/evil/disordered... whatever discription you feel most comfortable with.