The Day of the Great Slaughter

[Cygnus]

What are your thoughts of Isaiah 30:25
And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

 

[epronovost]

Why don't you post the entire paragraph. I don't know what's with some Christians popping a single sentence with o context and discussion. That's failure at 101 textual analysis.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I read the first 30 verses of the chapter to help give context.. Very severe imagery I see, as I wade through these verses, (since I can think in pictures to a degree..) though that isn't unusual with the book of Isaiah..

What's striking is the sort of blending of concepts of love and wrath, coming from god, that surround this verse.. These verses, as well is this verse, seem to indicate that god wants to heal at the same time he wishes to bring down wrath.. the tower he doesn't like, but the streams are healing streams of some kind. Rather exotic and austere

 

[LightofTruth]

I read the first 30 verses of the chapter to help give context.. Very severe imagery I see, as I wade through these verses, (since I can think in pictures to a degree..) though that isn't unusual with the book of Isaiah..

What's striking is the sort of blending of concepts of love and wrath, coming from god, that surround this verse.. These verses, as well is this verse, seem to indicate that god wants to heal at the same time he wishes to bring down wrath.. the tower he doesn't like, but the streams are healing streams of some kind. Rather exotic and austere

He's breaking the yoke of oppression off His people and punishing the oppressor.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

He's breaking the yoke of oppression off His people and punishing the oppressor.

I observe nothing of the sort occurring.. in the chapter , god is only punishing the disbelievers and rewarding the believers , within one group of people. There doesn't appear to be a 'yoke of oppression,' or a 'oppressor.' But think of it how you wish.. you can draw a line to whatever symbology you want, with religion

 

[LightofTruth]

I observe nothing of the sort occurring.. in the chapter , god is only punishing the disbelievers and rewarding the believers , within one group of people. There doesn't appear to be a 'yoke of oppression,' or a 'oppressor.' But think of it how you wish.. you can draw a line to whatever symbology you want, with religion

Isa 10:20 And this shall happen: on that day, the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will not continue to lean on the one who struck it but will lean on Yahweh, the holy one of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 A remnant will return—the remnant of Jacob—to the mighty God.
Isa 10:22 For though your people Israel was like the sand of the sea, only a remnant of it will return. Annihilation is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
Isa 10:23 For the Lord Yahweh of hosts is about to make a complete destruction and a determined end in the midst of all the earth.
Isa 10:24 Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh of hosts: "My people who live in Zion, you must not be afraid of Assyria. It beats you with the rod, and it lifts up its staff against you as the Egyptians did.
Isa 10:25 My indignation will come to an end in just a very little while, and my anger will be directed to their destruction."
Isa 10:26 And Yahweh of hosts is going to swing a whip against him, as when Midian was defeated at the rock of Oreb; and his staff will be over the sea, and he will lift him up as he did in Egypt.
Isa 10:27 And this shall happen: on that day, he will remove his burden from your shoulder and his yoke from your neck, and a yoke will be destroyed because of fat.
Isa 10:28 He has come to Aiath, he has passed through Migron; at Micmash he deposited his baggage.
Isa 10:29 They crossed over the pass; Geba is a place of overnight lodging for us. Ramah trembles; Gibeah of Saul has fled.
Isa 10:30 Daughter of Gallim, cry out with your voice; Laishah, listen! Anathoth is poor.
Isa 10:31 Madmenah flees! The inhabitants of Gebim bring themselves into safety!
Isa 10:32 This day taking a stand at Nob, he will shake his fist at the mountain of the daughter of Zion, at the hill of Jerusalem.
Isa 10:33 Look! The Lord Yahweh of hosts is about to lop off the branches with great power, and the towering trees will be felled, and the tall trees will be brought low.
Isa 10:34 And he will cut down the thickets of the forest with the axe, and Lebanon will fall by the mighty one.

Read it and weep.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Read it and weep.

I don't understand what you're proving ? This is 20 chapters before what we were discussing , and, it could be talking about conditions that are totally different. In any case, we are talking about texts that are from so long ago, and that use such abstract language, that I'm not sure it's appropriate that we should expect to see what they clearly mean. The 'burden' or the 'yoke,' in this context, quite possibly come from god himself anyway, like they seem to in other places, if I recall. So rather than having read this, and wept, I see mostly just another wall of abstract information, from a culture quite alien to ours, and from a long, long, time ago

 

[exchemist]

I don't understand what you're proving ? This is 20 chapters before what we were discussing , and, it could be talking about conditions that are totally different. In any case, we are talking about texts that are from so long ago, and that use such abstract language, that I'm not sure it's appropriate that we should expect to see what they clearly mean. The 'burden' or the 'yoke,' in this context, quite possibly come from god himself anyway, like they seem to in other places, if I recall. So rather than having read this, and wept, I see mostly just another wall of abstract information, from a culture quite alien to ours, and from a long, long, time ago

Sort of, read it and yawn, you mean?

 

[exchemist]

What are your thoughts of Isaiah 30:25
And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

Well we could start by looking at who the writer was, or is thought to be. I quote Wiki:
The traditional view is that all 66 chapters of the book of Isaiah were written by one man, Isaiah, possibly in two periods between 740 BC and c. 686 BC, separated by approximately 15 years, and that the book includes dramatic prophetic declarations of Cyrus the Great in the Bible, acting to restore the nation of Israel from Babylonian captivity. Another widely held view is that parts of the first half of the book (chapters 1–39) originated with the historical prophet, interspersed with prose commentaries written in the time of King Josiah a hundred years later, and that the remainder of the book dates from immediately before and immediately after the end of the exile in Babylon, almost two centuries after the time of the historical prophet.

With that in mind, one can make some sense of the long series of emotional declamations in Isaiah, mostly against various political entities of the time, it seems. The verses of Chapter 30 from 18 onward seem to contain something of a gearchange, with a message of God's help and forgiveness towards the "people of Zion", who will "weep no more". Verse 25 itself is part of a list of good things that will supposedly happen to indicate Gods blessings. To a desert people, the abundant provision of water is one of the most powerful images. (I lived for some years in the Persian Gulf.)

This is said to take place on a "day of slaughter" when the "strongholds" or "towers" [of their enemies] fall: a fairly typically bloodthirsty and vengeful Old Testament idea of indicating God's favour!

 

[LightofTruth]

I don't understand what you're proving ? This is 20 chapters before what we were discussing , and, it could be talking about conditions that are totally different. In any case, we are talking about texts that are from so long ago, and that use such abstract language, that I'm not sure it's appropriate that we should expect to see what they clearly mean. The 'burden' or the 'yoke,' in this context, quite possibly come from god himself anyway, like they seem to in other places, if I recall. So rather than having read this, and wept, I see mostly just another wall of abstract information, from a culture quite alien to ours, and from a long, long, time ago

Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be broken in pieces, which smote with a rod.

Isa 10:5 Ho Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, the staff in whose hand is mine indignation!

God brings the Assyrian against His rebellious people. But a remnant of the faithful escape.

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them (the Assyrian); but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Many believe, myself included, that this is prophecy of the time when God comes to judge His people and the nations,

The Assyrian spoken of in Isaiah sounds a whole lot like Gog of Ezekiel and the beast that rises out of the sea in Rev 13 and the image of Daniel 2

 

[LightofTruth]

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Isa 14:25 that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Eze 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy, and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD: In that day when my people Israel dwelleth securely, shalt thou not know it?
Eze 38:15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the uttermost parts of the north, thou, and many peoples with thee, all of them riding upon horses; a great company and a mighty army:
Eze 38:16 and thou shalt come up against my people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring thee against my land, that the nations may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD: *Art thou he of whom I spake in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring thee against them?

* God never spoke of "Gog" before. Therefore, Gog had been spoken of by another name.......the Assyrian of Isaiah!

Eze 39:4 Thou(Gog) shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy hordes, and the peoples that are with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Isa 14:25 that I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulder.

 

[shunyadragon]

Isa 30:31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be broken in pieces, which smote with a rod.

Isa 10:5 Ho Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, the staff in whose hand is mine indignation!

God brings the Assyrian against His rebellious people. But a remnant of the faithful escape.

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and they that are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them (the Assyrian); but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Many believe, myself included, that this is prophecy of the time when God comes to judge His people and the nations,

The Assyrian spoken of in Isaiah sounds a whole lot like Gog of Ezekiel and the beast that rises out of the sea in Rev 13 and the image of Daniel 2

'Many believe' is not an argument for a specific interpretation of Isaiah by any one later belief beyond the history f the Hebrews at the time it was written. It remains that by the evidence the book of Isaiah, and other historical context, refers to the in terms of the Hebrew tribe and its history of the times it was written. There is no evidence that it applies to the distant future beyond the Hebrew tribe.

Though the scripture of all the religions can be interrelated to an evolving spiritual nature of humanity from a dominant tribal orientation to a more a universal orientation of all of humanity. The prophecy of all religions can be related to this future promise in Universal Revelation.

 

[LightofTruth]

It remains that by the evidence the book of Isaiah, and other historical context, refers to the in terms of the Hebrew tribe and its history of the times it was written. There is no evidence that it applies to the distant future beyond the Hebrew tribe.

We can't ignore the fact that God speaks of these things as happening "in the latter days". The people of Israel and the surrounding nations have both former days and latter days. For example:

Eze 38:16 and thou shalt come up against my people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring thee against my land, that the nations may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Dan 2:28 but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and he hath made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these:

The kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's image have both their former days and their latter days. And so too do the people of Israel and Judah. The kingdoms of the image have all come and gone...their former days have past. But they will have a latter day when the image is fully erect and the rock will smite the image at its feet and turn it to dust.

 

[shunyadragon]

We can't ignore the fact that God speaks of these things as happening "in the latter days". The people of Israel and the surrounding nations have both former days and latter days. For example:

Eze 38:16 and thou shalt come up against my people Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring thee against my land, that the nations may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Dan 2:28 but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and he hath made known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these:

The kingdoms of Nebuchadnezzar's image have both their former days and their latter days. And so too do the people of Israel and Judah. The kingdoms of the image have all come and gone...their former days have past. But they will have a latter day when the image is fully erect and the rock will smite the image at its feet and turn it to dust.

It remains that Biblically in the context of the Torah the 'Latter Days' referred to Hebrew history.

The 'Later Day' Christian concept refers to times beyond the Hebrew historical context of the Torah.

 

[LightofTruth]

The question is this: Why will God, in the latter days, bring the nations against His people?

He will do it for the same reason He has always done it. They are a rebellious people.

It remains that Biblically in the context of the Torah the 'Latter Days' referred to Hebrew history.

The 'Later Day' Christian concept refers to times beyond the Hebrew historical context of the Torah.

I'm not one who rejects the prophecy of Jesus. Also known as Revelation.

 

[shunyadragon]

The question is this: Why will God, in the latter days, bring the nations against His people?

He will do it for the same reason He has always done it. They are a rebellious people.

I'm not one who rejects the prophecy of Jesus. Also known as Revelation.

What lacks is any text evidence that the Torah refers to anything beyond the history of the Hebrews reference to their own history and those of their enemies.

 

[shunyadragon]

The question is this: Why will God, in the latter days, bring the nations against His people?

He will do it for the same reason He has always done it. They are a rebellious people.

The problem remains that there is no evidence that the reference to the 'latter days' refers to anything beyond the history of the
Hebrew tribes and their enemies.

All the tribes at the time wared against each others dominance. That is what the tribes do, and they write about it as did the Sumerians, Babylonians, Canaanites, Ugarits, and the Egyptians..

I'm not one who rejects the prophecy of Jesus. Also known as Revelation.

Yes, from the perspective of your own belief.

 

[LightofTruth]

What lacks is any text evidence that the Torah refers to anything beyond the history of the Hebrews reference to their own history and those of their enemies.

Their history is still in the making. When the time is ripe God will come to judge His people and the nations as has been spoken by His prophets from Moses to Jesus.

 

[shunyadragon]

Their history is still in the making. When the time is ripe God will come to judge His people and the nations as has been spoken by His prophets from Moses to Jesus.

Yes, history is still in the making, but there is no evidence that the Torah referred to any history beyond that of the Hebrew tribes.

 

[LightofTruth]

Yes, history is still in the making, but there is no evidence that the Torah referred to any history beyond that of the Hebrew tribes.

The Jewish people are the Hebrew tribes.