The death penalty. Are you against it or for it?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes I did post something similar.
The reason is.... 17 years ago a couple I know, their 10 year old daughter was kidnapped, molested and raped for 2 days before being killed. The 39 year old, with two other prior molestation convictions received life in prison w/o parole. Meaning we have to pay(with our tax dollars) to house, feed, clothe, provide medical, provide dental, etc take care of him until he dies even if that's 40+ years.
In my opinion there is no justice in that.

I'm sorry for your friend's daughter.

How would it serve justice to kill him? That's the real question.

In a society that values liberty, any infringements on liberty - e.g. killing someone as the punishment for a crime - must be justified.

... so what's the justification? What legitimate goal do you think the justice system should have for this person that isn't served by life imprisonment?

 

[HonestJoe]

Why should we not do the same to humans?

However much experience on this forum might suggest otherwise, you can reason with humans.

 

[We Never Know]

I'm sorry for your friend's daughter.

How would it serve justice to kill him? That's the real question.

In a society that values liberty, any infringements on liberty - e.g. killing someone as the punishment for a crime - must be justified.

... so what's the justification? What legitimate goal do you think the justice system should have for this person that isn't served by life imprisonment?

He gave up his right to live by what he did.
While the parents of the daughter (that never had the chance to grow up and live life) visit her grave to put flowers on it, that POS is watching tv, playing games, playing basketball, reading, lifting weights, playing racquet ball, living completely rent free with free medical and dental that they help pay for with their tax dollars.
There is no justice in that.

 

[exchemist]

The first two I understood, but the last weakens the other two objections.

The " If " is what I'm referring to.

What if the person repeatedly killed, could not be reformed, and was guilty, should they die?

When I read people are against CP, there are usually exceptions to the rule. Why is that?

Who is to judge if a person cannot be reformed?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Who is to judge if a person cannot be reformed?

I was wondering if there is an exception to the reasons you gave, nothing deeper than that.

 

[Suave]

If a dog, bear, lion, croc, etc attack or kill a human, its not locked in a zoo in cages, its killed, its euthanized. Those animals were/are only doing what is natural to them.

Why should we not do the same to humans?

Save for habitual serial killers, please let us abolish capital punishment against non serial killers.

 

[exchemist]

I was wondering if there is an exception to the reasons you gave, nothing deeper than that.

You could make a case for it perhaps in one or two extreme cases. But there is a saying that hard cases make bad law. And the practical arguments in favour of capital punishment are weak, so there seems no positive point in having the option of putting a criminal to death, to set against the negative aspects I have listed. So you simply put the judge in the horrible position of deciding whether or not to issue a death sentence, to no purpose.

Scrap it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He gave up his right to live by what he did.
While the parents of the daughter (that never had the chance to grow up and live life) visit her grave to put flowers on it, that POS is watching tv, playing games, playing basketball, reading, lifting weights, playing racquet ball, living completely rent free with free medical and dental that they help pay for with their tax dollars.
There is no justice in that.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Curious George]

If murder is wrong, then capital punishment is wrong.
If we think people should have an unalienable right to life, then capital punishment is illegal.
Some people don't give a rat's donkey for human rights. Civilized people call them barbarians.

No right is unfettered.

 

[oldbadger]

I think it is the same in hanging or shooting or beheading/guillotine. Brain will be alive till it exhausts the oxygen supply. It will have an NDE from which the person will not return. But does that matter? If that is to be avoided, then perhaps Hemlock (like in case of Socrates).

Shooting or drop-hanging would knock out sense and awareness instantly, Aup.

Can we do a deal? Where you are you can have your mass execution date to get rid of your backlog, and we'll just lock 'em up in the UK. I do appreciate that your offenders on death row had done some dreadful things, but I just can't vote for the death penalty.

One wrongful conviction is all it takes ...... and in the UK we wrongly convicted/hanged too many. Google will have a long list of our outrsges, I expect.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you refuse to deal with the ethics of the actual death penalty.

No, I don't refuse to deal with it. I believe the death penalty is ethical when warranted.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I did post something similar.
The reason is.... 17 years ago a couple I know, their 10 year old daughter was kidnapped, molested and raped for 2 days before being killed. The 39 year old, with two other prior molestation convictions received life in prison w/o parole. Meaning we have to pay(with our tax dollars) to house, feed, clothe, provide medical, provide dental, etc take care of him until he dies even if that's 40+ years.
In my opinion there is no justice in that.

I fully agree, and there are many cases like that.

 

[Curious George]

I'm sorry for your friend's daughter.

How would it serve justice to kill him? That's the real question.

In a society that values liberty, any infringements on liberty - e.g. killing someone as the punishment for a crime - must be justified.

... so what's the justification? What legitimate goal do you think the justice system should have for this person that isn't served by life imprisonment?

The justification is that some debts can only be paid with one's life.

Further justification can be found in other retributive philosophies on punishment.

If that is good enough, it is a more pragmatic means of specific deterrence.

I think your question was answered.

 

[Trailblazer]

If a murderer kills another murderer it's still murder.

Definition of murderer
: one who murders especially : one who commits the crime of murder
Definition of MURDERER.

Definition of crime
1 : an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government especially : a gross violation of law
Definition of CRIME

Innocence doesn't matter.

Of course innocence matters. Guilt vs. innocence, it's called justice, ever heard of it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Definition of murderer
: one who murders especially : one who commits the crime of murder
Definition of MURDERER.

Definition of crime
1 : an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government especially : a gross violation of law
Definition of CRIME

Of course innocence matters. Guilt vs. innocence, it's called justice, ever heard of it?

Trailer. Just talk. I don't read bold.

 

[Heyo]

He gave up his right to live by what he did.

Do you know what an unalienable right is?
You can't wave it, you can't sell it and it can't be taken from you by a judge or jury.
Inthe UN Declaration of Human Rights, the right to life is unalienable. In the preamble of the US Declaration of Independence it was intended to be an unalienable right (though it never was made into law).

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The justification is that some debts can only be paid with one's life.

Further justification can be found in other retributive philosophies on punishment.

Debt... to who? Who benefits from the death of this person? It won't bring back his victim.

If that is good enough, it is a more pragmatic means of specific deterrence.

I think your question was answered.

In a country with a properly functioning penal system, capital punishment is no better at specific deterrence than life without parole is.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No right is unfettered.

... including a perceived right to retribution?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I don't refuse to deal with it. I believe the death penalty is ethical when warranted.

If you refuse to consider the possibility that the accused is innocent, then you're refusing to deal with the ethics of the death penalty.

Any "warrant" for the death penalty is subject to some degree of error.

 

[Kooky]

Definition of murderer
: one who murders especially : one who commits the crime of murder
Definition of MURDERER.

Definition of crime
1 : an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government especially : a gross violation of law
Definition of CRIME

Of course innocence matters. Guilt vs. innocence, it's called justice, ever heard of it?

In other words, the 100% surefire way to get rid of murder and murderers is to remove all laws against killing people.