The deep why of it all

[torrentialrain]

@torrentialrain

Can you elaborate a bit on how the feeling of wonderment or strangeness led you to feel that the world was invented or designed? Not everybody takes that path of reasoning, so I'm curious how you got there. Maybe you're not sure and it's just a feeling or hunch, but I'm curious nonetheless.

Well I'm not a materialist; I don't believe the universe is just matter. I don't think matter could ever explain consciousness.

So given that, it's pretty natural to believe that there is an intelligence, a sentience, that composes and is behind the universe, that invents or designs it, if you will...

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Who invented "sound," for example... not a particular sound, but the experience of sound itself?

"Sound" is what we humans call it, and what you are thinking of when you think of "sound" has nothing to do with the reality that objectively presents itself. Those vibrations are interpreted different ways by different creatures of the Earth. What you call "sound" is interpreted completely differently by a creature that has no "ears" to hear. Some creatures sense the vibrations using other sensory organs, but they do not get an effect like our "sound," their mind reacts to the stimulus in an entirely different way. Just as dogs' hearing trumps our own, or bats use echolocation - the different experiences are what they need to be for each organism that has them.

I don't believe that any of these sensory methods were crafted in any kind of "workshop." They were honed and adapted to, in response to the ability to react to the stimulus aiding in survival.

 

[osgart]

What drew me to religion and spirituality in the first place was the deep sense of why... of the strangeness of existence. What the hell is all this?!? Does anyone else feel this way?

Literally, you're sitting at a keyboard or at a phone or something, looking at these words, perhaps looking around right now... where does all this come from?

Who invented "sound," for example... not a particular sound, but the experience of sound itself?

Clearly however sound was invented, it must have been in a "workshop" outside of the mind. That workshop must be inconceivable, unimaginable, beyond all our concepts and percepts and time and space -- beyond existence and non-existence itself.

Perhaps it lives in a paradoxical realm as far beyond our comprehension as we are to amoeba.

What is the nature of that workshop?

Whatever -- whoever -- uses that workshop creates all the specifics, all the particulars, from the largest to the smallest... but how does it do that and why?

Its great to know that other people on rf think this way. Since coming on rf i have found far more naturalists here, then those who reason for intelligent causes.

I myself find it hard to swallow that life arose mindlessly from natural physical processes. Yet i am far from the belief in supernatural occurence.

In the end i think human logic and thought is way overdone. I suppose one can talk themself right out of any obviousness in reality whatsoever. But i wont be had on such things as consciousness being an illusion, no freedom of will, no objective morality, time being an illusion as well, etc.

 

[tayla]

What drew me to religion and spirituality in the first place was the deep sense of why... of the strangeness of existence.

Does anyone else feel this way?

Yes, I do.

 

[tayla]

Clearly however sound was invented, it must have been in a "workshop" outside of the mind.

I refer to all this as the "spiritual realm". I am of the opinion that nothing can be known about the structure and functioning of the spiritual realm.

 

[YoursTrue]

What drew me to religion and spirituality in the first place was the deep sense of why... of the strangeness of existence. What the hell is all this?!? Does anyone else feel this way?

Literally, you're sitting at a keyboard or at a phone or something, looking at these words, perhaps looking around right now... where does all this come from?

Who invented "sound," for example... not a particular sound, but the experience of sound itself?

Clearly however sound was invented, it must have been in a "workshop" outside of the mind. That workshop must be inconceivable, unimaginable, beyond all our concepts and percepts and time and space -- beyond existence and non-existence itself.

Perhaps it lives in a paradoxical realm as far beyond our comprehension as we are to amoeba.

What is the nature of that workshop?

Whatever -- whoever -- uses that workshop creates all the specifics, all the particulars, from the largest to the smallest... but how does it do that and why?

Hello, Torrentialrain. I felt like you, searched and searched for something that made sense. I read books about Buddhism, mysticism, Catholicism, Protestantism, Judaism, and nothing made much of any sense to me at all to explain the universe. Until I finally prayed to God to ask if He was there, would He please help me to know Him. And He did, I'm happy to say.

 

[blü 2]

What is the nature of that workshop?

It's called evolution.

Once understood, it explains an enormous amount ─ the mammalian body, the nervous system and the brain, instinct, memory, language, learning, sound and hearing and voice and echolocation, seeing and depth perception and the spectrum, touch, pain, taste, feel, proprioception, the works.

And it's simply an aspect of nature. It has no goal, no purpose, no intended destination or outcome.

Awesome!

 

[Segev Moran]

What drew me to religion and spirituality in the first place was the deep sense of why... of the strangeness of existence. What the hell is all this?!? Does anyone else feel this way?

This notion of "What is going on" is what drives us to develop technologies and ideas (some are better than others ) of what is our reality.

Literally, you're sitting at a keyboard or at a phone or something, looking at these words, perhaps looking around right now... where does all this come from?

It all comes from billions of years of an amazing process that slowly became what we are today
(At least as far as we know today)

Who invented "sound," for example... not a particular sound, but the experience of sound itself?

No one "Invented" sound. Sound is a wave. it is a vibration of particles that moves all around us.
What we call sound, is a term to describe the way our brain interprets those waves and particles movement.
for a deaf person, sound doesn't exist, only the phenomena itself. (although deaf people can feel the vibration of the sound much better than people who can hear usually)

Clearly however sound was invented, it must have been in a "workshop" outside of the mind. That workshop must be inconceivable, unimaginable, beyond all our concepts and percepts and time and space -- beyond existence and non-existence itself.

Sound is not that mystical, its a rather simple thing.
The fact it is simple however, doesn't make it less amazing.
But sound was not made for humans, humans can process sound.
Bats can interpret sound in a different way, they "see" sound (like a sonar).
Many animals can hear frequencies (wave length) that humans cannot.
Humans happen to develop mechanisms that can recognize sound patterns and introduce them to your brain in a way we call "hearing"

Perhaps it lives in a paradoxical realm as far beyond our comprehension as we are to amoeba.

Or not

What is the nature of that workshop?

Evolution

Whatever -- whoever -- uses that workshop creates all the specifics, all the particulars, from the largest to the smallest... but how does it do that and why?

The process as far as we know it today is like so:
During the past billions of years, all life on earth evolved in a very slow and violent process.
The human brain and for that matter all brains, all work as a pattern recognition mechanism.
This means that we translate reality using our senses to a meaningful data.

Taste for example is how our brain interprets certain chemicals. our tongue have many sensors each generates a different reaction to those chemicals. some are interpreted as bitter, some sweet and so on.

There are still many question marks on how everything works, but the general idea is our senses react to chemicals and electrical signals or waves, and in return, your brain produces the interpretation in the form of sensation.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

What drew me to religion and spirituality in the first place was the deep sense of why... of the strangeness of existence. What the hell is all this?!? Does anyone else feel this way?

Literally, you're sitting at a keyboard or at a phone or something, looking at these words, perhaps looking around right now... where does all this come from?

Who invented "sound," for example... not a particular sound, but the experience of sound itself?

Clearly however sound was invented, it must have been in a "workshop" outside of the mind. That workshop must be inconceivable, unimaginable, beyond all our concepts and percepts and time and space -- beyond existence and non-existence itself.

Perhaps it lives in a paradoxical realm as far beyond our comprehension as we are to amoeba.

What is the nature of that workshop?

Whatever -- whoever -- uses that workshop creates all the specifics, all the particulars, from the largest to the smallest... but how does it do that and why?

Very good points, I think we would all do well to remember these fundamental questions that got us all thinking, after a couple of thousand posts, they tend to get lost in the weeds..!


And sound yes, superficially of course we can wave it away at simple vibrations... as these words on the screen are also simply 'vibrations of electromagnetic waves.. ' but we are describing a very small part of a medium, not explaining how they came to be.

It's not clear that there can ever be a 'how' without a 'why'. Purpose is the only phenomena that can live in the future, genuinely create something new . So 'why' is the ultimate question, and what's the greatest motive for anything?

All you need is

 

[Guy Threepwood]

That we humans can contemplate and appreciate our own existence is wondrous beyond comprehension. It's why art, rather than science, philosophy, or religion is the greatest all human achievement.

Not only that, we are the only means we know of, by which the universe can contemplate and appreciate it's own existence