The Demise of Religion

[Saint Frankenstein]

None of those things are God. Those are groups of people. Inspired people, perhaps, but you let me know when God puts on a hard hat and breaks ground.

My God has done much more than build some road.

 

[Skwim]

Western culture is in steep decline so what's new.

I hope you don't believe that religion is the sine qua non of culture. If not, then what other signs are there of western culture's steep decline?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I hope you don't believe that religion is the sine qua non of culture. If not, then what other signs are there of western culture's steep decline?

It most certainly is. The religion of a culture is its soul. If its religion dies, then that culture dies.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Socialism is nothing like communism.
Unlike you, I do have and have read communist literature. I know that communal ownership comes in many forms, including the religious and spiritually inclined, as well as those who base their philosophies upon materialism. I am very aware early Christian communes were communist, that there is classic Marxism as well as Neo-Marxism, Lennonist-Marxist communism, and many other forms.
I can tell by your post you are blind about what communism is, and that you have bought into all the anti-communist propaganda. To me, as someone who is educated about communism, your misunderstandings about communism are as obvious as a creationist's misunderstandings of evolution.
Socialism is NOT communism. Marx wrote that socialism is a step towards communism, but they are still very different.

It is different technically but Socialism is similar in design, and not as extreme as communism. It's a joke of a system that has oppressed millions and many countries in Europe and in North America ARE slowly becoming more communist like. The liberals don't act like liberals anymore and act more like socialists with their laws that they try to pass. I don't think it's a coincidence that religion is declining in America, and America just happens to become more communist since communists are well known for being anti religious, not just atheist.

It's all a part of people becoming more loyal to the government and less loyal to their deities.

 

[Skwim]

It most certainly is. The religion of a culture is its soul. If its religion dies, then that culture dies.

Just happened to be reading about the Hadza culture of northern Tanzania the other day. It's a warless, hunter-gatherer culture in which a man must first kill five baboons in order to "marry" a woman. But there are no wedding ceremonies, no anniversaries, no birthdays; they have no religious ceremonies, no religious beliefs, and no religion. The Hazda have no idea what happens to a person after he dies. And when explained what a god is one of the elders just pointed to the Sun. However, they do have a social structure with rules, rituals, and consequences, but no religion. The culture has been around for 10,000 years.

Source: National Geographic vol. 216 no. 6

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just happened to be reading about the Hadza culture of northern Tanzania the other day. It's a warless, hunter-gatherer culture in which a man must first kill five baboons in order to "marry" a woman. But there are no wedding ceremonies, no anniversaries, no birthdays; they have no religious ceremonies, no religious beliefs, and no religion. The Hazda have no idea what happens to a person after he dies. And when explained what a god is one of the elders just pointed to the Sun. However, they do have a social structure with rules, rituals, and consequences, but no religion. The culture has been around for 10,000 years.

Source: National Geographic vol. 216 no. 6

Looking at Wiki, it appears that they do have a religion. It's a sort of nature worship that revolves around Ishoko, who appears to be a sort of sun deity or spirit. The National Geographic article even refers to the sun as their "god". They also have a mythology that includes stories involving Ishoko, her husband and several giants. They do have a few rituals, especially a dance that the men perform that appears to have some sort of transcendent meaning and ancestors are said to join in the dancing at times. So apparently they think that there's something after death, but are not sure what. (It's difficult to say anything for sure since I can't find much about them. They don't seem to be well-studied.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is different technically but Socialism is similar in design, and not as extreme as communism. It's a joke of a system that has oppressed millions and many countries in Europe and in North America ARE slowly becoming more communist like. The liberals don't act like liberals anymore and act more like socialists with their laws that they try to pass. I don't think it's a coincidence that religion is declining in America, and America just happens to become more communist since communists are well known for being anti religious, not just atheist.

It's all a part of people becoming more loyal to the government and less loyal to their deities.

You obviously do not know a good god damn thing about communism. America does not, at all, in any shape or form, resemble communism. You saying you "know" something about communism is not only like a creationist pretending to "understand" biology, it's as bad as a non-Trekkie trying to say they know Vulcans have no emotions (an extremely common misconception among non-Trekkies), when in fact they do have emotions: actually they have very strong and powerful emotions.
But, anyways, you are content on saying communism is about government control, when, in fact, even Karl Marx wrote communism is a moneyless, classless, and stateless society. You obviously have no idea that Marx and Engels were associates of the likes of Max Steiner, who was an anarchist. If anything, Marxist communism is very strongly related to anarchy (it's just as far left on the typical American scale, after all), even if the two school of thoughts tend to disagree over many things.
If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, go ahead. But, unlike you, there are some of us who have not bought into the anti-communist propaganda of the West, and there are many of us who can see the only real difference between the USSR and America is America "exported" the massive exploitation and poverty to other countries who serve a "peripheral" role in Capitalism. We also realize there is a "-Lennonist" part attached to the USSR brand of communism, and that the "-Leninist" was not all bad at the beginning, but only bad when power and absolute power corrupted, which turned what should have been communal power into statist oligarchy.
As for the science, good god, the USSR was way ahead of American capitalist for the longest time. The rockets that propelled the "space race" came from an extremely far-right brand of socialism, the USSR came up with better weapons, and the USSR was way ahead of America in the "space race" until the lunar landing, of which the technology that made that possible came from the nationalist socialist. History is every so ****ing every which-way and every-where when you don't buy into any sort of nationalist propaganda, be it from Western-Capitalist America (or England in previous centuries), Nationalist-Socialist Germany, or Marxist-Leninist Russia.

 

[Skwim]

Looking at Wiki, it appears that they do have a religion. It's a sort of nature worship that revolves around Ishoko, who appears to be a sort of sun deity or spirit. The National Geographic article even refers to the sun as their "god". They also have a mythology that includes stories involving Ishoko, her husband and several giants. They do have a few rituals, especially a dance that the men perform that appears to have some sort of transcendent meaning and ancestors are said to join in the dancing at times. So apparently they think that there's something after death, but are not sure what. (It's difficult to say anything for sure since I can't find much about them. They don't seem to be well-studied.)

Hmmm. I didn't see anything about the nature worship in the Wiki article or recall it from the N.G. article. Nor any mention in the Wiki piece about Ishoko appearing to be a sort of sun deity or spirit. Ishoko isn't mentioned at all in the magazine piece (I skimmed it pretty thoroughly).

To further note, (yeah, I did bother to look it up) the N.G. article also says, "There are no Hadza priests or shamans or medicine men." At least one of which, or their counterpart, appears to be an essential figure in all the religions I'm aware of. In any case, it takes more than calling the sun, "god," a simple supernatural belief, to constitute a religion.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hmmm. I didn't see anything about the nature worship in the Wiki article or recall it from the N.G. article. Nor any mention in the Wiki piece about Ishoko appearing to be a sort of sun deity or spirit. Ishoko isn't mentioned at all in the magazine piece (I skimmed it pretty thoroughly).

To further note, (yeah, I did bother to look it up) the N.G. article also says, "There are no Hadza priests or shamans or medicine men." At least one of which, or their counterpart, appears to be an essential figure in all the religions I'm aware of. In any case, it takes more than calling the sun, "god," a simple supernatural belief, to constitute a religion.

I said that she seems to be a deity or spirit. When people asked them what a god is, they pointed to the sun. For all intents and purposes, they're sun-worshipers. But there's not much information about them either way.

 

[Skwim]

I said that she seems to be a deity or spirit.

Yes, I know, which is why I said, "Nor any mention in the Wiki piece about Ishoko appearing to be a sort of sun deity or spirit.

When people asked them what a god is, they pointed to the sun. For all intents and purposes, they're sun-worshipers. But there's not much information about them either way.

Well, the information we do have doesn't suggest worshiping at all. The only worship we see is in your supposition that "It's a sort of nature worship that revolves around Ishoko, who appears to be a sort of sun deity or spirit."

That you equate the identification of the sun as god with worshiping it is more than quite a stretch. I assume you do know the difference.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It most certainly is. The religion of a culture is its soul. If its religion dies, then that culture dies.

There's no unlike button, so I just quoted this so I could offer my brief thought ; Boo

*shrugs*
Nothing personal (as you know) but I fundamentally disagree with this.

 

[Quetzal]

My God has done much more than build some road.

From your perspective, I am sure He has. From mine, I am a bit more skeptical.

 

[leibowde84]

Right, nothing wrong with good spirits and family, but how did Jesus and his apostles celebrate Christmas and Easter ?
Since such celebrations were already non-biblical customs connected to non-biblical worship, why would they involve themselves with them ?

Jesus and the Apostles didn't celebrate Christmas or Easter.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

You obviously do not know a good god damn thing about communism. America does not, at all, in any shape or form, resemble communism. You saying you "know" something about communism is not only like a creationist pretending to "understand" biology, it's as bad as a non-Trekkie trying to say they know Vulcans have no emotions (an extremely common misconception among non-Trekkies), when in fact they do have emotions: actually they have very strong and powerful emotions.
But, anyways, you are content on saying communism is about government control, when, in fact, even Karl Marx wrote communism is a moneyless, classless, and stateless society. You obviously have no idea that Marx and Engels were associates of the likes of Max Steiner, who was an anarchist. If anything, Marxist communism is very strongly related to anarchy (it's just as far left on the typical American scale, after all), even if the two school of thoughts tend to disagree over many things.
If you want to keep embarrassing yourself, go ahead. But, unlike you, there are some of us who have not bought into the anti-communist propaganda of the West, and there are many of us who can see the only real difference between the USSR and America is America "exported" the massive exploitation and poverty to other countries who serve a "peripheral" role in Capitalism. We also realize there is a "-Lennonist" part attached to the USSR brand of communism, and that the "-Leninist" was not all bad at the beginning, but only bad when power and absolute power corrupted, which turned what should have been communal power into statist oligarchy.
As for the science, good god, the USSR was way ahead of American capitalist for the longest time. The rockets that propelled the "space race" came from an extremely far-right brand of socialism, the USSR came up with better weapons, and the USSR was way ahead of America in the "space race" until the lunar landing, of which the technology that made that possible came from the nationalist socialist. History is every so ****ing every which-way and every-where when you don't buy into any sort of nationalist propaganda, be it from Western-Capitalist America (or England in previous centuries), Nationalist-Socialist Germany, or Marxist-Leninist Russia.

Insulting others doesn't make your point any more valid, but it only succeeds in making you tactless and ignorant. But I'm sure you've heard enough people say that to you in your life time, so I won't go talk about it anymore.

I know enough of communism. No, American politicians aren't going to say "We are a communist nation" because that would be stupid. That's why it's slowly happening. Why do you think they are pushing gun control? For fun? It's a communist trait and a disarmed nation is easier to control, where many communist nations ban or heavily restrict guns. This isn't difficult to comprehend.

What Marx said is entirely different from what Lenin said as Lenin just took Marx's ideas and made it a thousand times worse. Not that Marx's ideas were that good to begin with but it wasn't as bad as Lenin's vision.

We all know communists went after religious temples and there was a reason behind that. Why can't you see that? Besides it doesn't matter what Marx said because obviously they didn't follow all of his teaching's. Otherwise there would be no such thing as the communism today, as his version iof it was very different from what others envisioned.

but no matter how many temples are destroyed or religions that are oppressed, religion will never be destroyed because it's an idea.

 

[Quetzal]

Insulting others doesn't make your point any more valid, but it only succeeds in making you tactless and ignorant. But I'm sure you've heard enough people say that to you in your life time, so I won't go talk about it anymore.

I know enough of communism. No, American politicians aren't going to say "We are a communist nation" because that would be stupid. That's why it's slowly happening. Why do you think they are pushing gun control? For fun? It's a communist trait and a disarmed nation is easier to control, where many communist nations ban or heavily restrict guns. This isn't difficult to comprehend.

Nah. I think it has more to do with it becoming a hot topic every time there is some sort of national tragedy. Guns will never go away, they are too ingrained.

We all know communists went after religious temples and there was a reason behind that. Why can't you see that? Besides it doesn't matter what Marx said because obviously they didn't follow all of his teaching's. Otherwise there would be no such thing as the communism today, as his version iof it was very different from what others envisioned.

When Obama starts bulldozing Synagogues we can pick up on this discussion again. Until then...

but no matter how many temples are destroyed or religions that are oppressed, religion will never be destroyed because it's an idea.

Who is oppressing religions, again?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Nah. I think it has more to do with it becoming a hot topic every time there is some sort of national tragedy. Guns will never go away, they are too ingrained.


When Obama starts bulldozing Synagogues we can pick up on this discussion again. Until then...


Who is oppressing religions, again?

A lot of people say "That's not going to happen" and then it happens, so I wouldn't be so sure. It's less likely for guns to be taken away since it's been part of our life for a while. Here's hoping it doesn't go away.

Obama wouldn't do something as obvious as bulldoze synagogues or any other religious temple. However I think that America has developed into more of a leftist somewhat socialist attitude towards things and religion is declining. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Islam is being more oppressed in America. You should see the attitude towards Muslims in America, where some would want them to wear a crescent moon and star to signify that they are Muslim. Does that sound familiar? It's what the Jews had to do when they had to wear the Star of David. Wiccans hile not really oppressed so much have gotten some flak to many misunderstandings.

 

[leibowde84]

A lot of people say "That's not going to happen" and then it happens, so I wouldn't be so sure. It's less likely for guns to be taken away since it's been part of our life for a while. Here's hoping it doesn't go away.

Obama wouldn't do something as obvious as bulldoze synagogues or any other religious temple. However I think that America has developed into more of a leftist somewhat socialist attitude towards things and religion is declining. I don't see that as a coincidence.

Islam is being more oppressed in America. You should see the attitude towards Muslims in America, where some would want them to wear a crescent moon and star to signify that they are Muslim. Does that sound familiar? It's what the Jews had to do when they had to wear the Star of David. Wiccans hile not really oppressed so much have gotten some flak to many misunderstandings.

This is just a straw man, assuming that these things are actually a threat without providing any evidence to suggest it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Insulting others doesn't make your point any more valid, but it only succeeds in making you tactless and ignorant. But I'm sure you've heard enough people say that to you in your life time, so I won't go talk about it anymore.

It wasn't meant as an insult. When you say that American society is heading towards or resembles communism, in any way-shape-or form, it is a factual statement that you do not understand communism. Hence, it is as obvious as a creationist trying to say they understand biology when they make it obvious that they do not.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

This is just a straw man, assuming that these things are actually a threat without providing any evidence to suggest it.

That's the ironic part. Evidence has been provided. It's right there in front of people who either dismiss it as make believe, or know that it's true but refuse to believe it because they don't want to believe it. Almost all the time someone demands evidence and when they do get it, they just ignore it, so why ask it to begin with? You don't think the idea that Muslims have faced unfair treatment in America to be make believe, do you? We know America and other countries have slowly become corrupt. The evidence is right there, with Gun control, Federal Reserve Patriot Act, NSA TSA and so forth. Rights have been slowly eroding away, to where it's difficult for one to express themselves because one might offend someone and get sued.

America is not beyond corruption. All other countries faced it so why would America be the exception? It's easy to see. People just need to open their eyes to see it.

 

[leibowde84]

That's the ironic part. Evidence has been provided. It's right there in front of people who either dismiss it as make believe, or know that it's true but refuse to believe it because they don't want to believe it. Almost all the time someone demands evidence and when they do get it, they just ignore it, so why ask it to begin with? You don't think the idea that Muslims have faced unfair treatment in America to be make believe, do you? We know America and other countries have slowly become corrupt. The evidence is right there, with Gun control, Federal Reserve Patriot Act, NSA TSA and so forth. Rights have been slowly eroding away, to where it's difficult for one to express themselves because one might offend someone and get sued.

America is not beyond corruption. All other countries faced it so why would America be the exception? It's easy to see. People just need to open their eyes to see it.

I agree that there is corruption and mistreatment of Muslims. But, you named very specific consequences without providing a sliver of evidence. There are a monumental amount of possible consequences that may or may not take place, and many of them are negative. So, why should we believe that your specific examples are worth worrying about more than any other. That was my only point.