The Design of Torture

[evolved yet?]

Please explain.

In short, the characteristics of a benevolent being are:
Indiscriminate of beliefs,
Just to all,
Asks for nothing but moral behaviour,
Differentiates only by character - not beliefs / lack of beliefs,
Encourages rational and independent thought and enquiry,
No Hell,
Prevents undue suffering upon the Earth,
Etc.
So, in short the characteristics of an evil being are:
Sadistic,
Hateful,
Egocentric (requires continuous worship and belief),
Discourages independent thought,
Encourages incurious behaviour and unquestionable dogma,
Encourages blind faith and suspension of reason,
Genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, allows for slavery etc.,
Allows for Hell,
Allows for horrific suffering on Earth,
Etc.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Granted, it was a little underhanded and excessive. Sorry.

Alright, let's discuss this.

In what sense is this the work of benevolence:

Or how about Leishmaniasis?

How is this the work of a benevolent deity?

This does not address my point either. The God of the Bible is not one-dimensional.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In short, the characteristics of a benevolent being are:
Indiscriminate of beliefs,
Just to all,
Asks for nothing but moral behaviour,
Differentiates only by character - not beliefs / lack of beliefs,
Encourages rational and independent thought and enquiry,
No Hell,
Prevents undue suffering upon the Earth,
Etc.
So, in short the characteristics of an evil being are:
Sadistic,
Hateful,
Egocentric (requires continuous worship and belief),
Discourages independent thought,
Encourages incurious behaviour and unquestionable dogma,
Encourages blind faith and suspension of reason,
Genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, allows for slavery etc.,
Allows for Hell,
Allows for horrific suffering on Earth,
Etc.

Where did you source this from?

 

[PolyHedral]

This does not address my point either. The God of the Bible is not one-dimensional.

But he does have the characteristic of benevolence. This implies certain behaviors, and Meow is arguing that since those behaviors aren't there, God can't be benevolent.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But he does have the characteristic of benevolence. This implies certain behaviors, and Meow is arguing that since those behaviors aren't there, God can't be benevolent.

It doesn't seem so. I am interpreting Meow as saying that since not everything God does is benevolent then He isn't, hence my point that God has more than one characteristic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It doesn't seem so. I am interpreting Meow as saying that since not everything God does is benevolent then He isn't, hence my point that God has more than one characteristic.

Another way of looking at it is to say that one of God's characteristics is malevolence.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Another way of looking at it is to say that one of God's characteristics is malevolence.

Yes, there are times when it is shown that the God of the Bible does indeed intend harm.

 

[evolved yet?]

Where did you source this from?

This Blog.

 

[evolved yet?]

In short, the characteristics of a benevolent being are:
Indiscriminate of beliefs,
Just to all,
Asks for nothing but moral behaviour,
Differentiates only by character - not beliefs / lack of beliefs,
Encourages rational and independent thought and enquiry,
No Hell,
Prevents undue suffering upon the Earth,
Etc.
So, in short the characteristics of an evil being are:
Sadistic,
Hateful,
Egocentric (requires continuous worship and belief),
Discourages independent thought,
Encourages incurious behaviour and unquestionable dogma,
Encourages blind faith and suspension of reason,
Genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, allows for slavery etc.,
Allows for Hell,
Allows for horrific suffering on Earth,
Etc.

You still have not addressed these points.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes, there are times when it is shown that the God of the Bible does indeed intend harm.

And in your judgement, are the cases given in the OP examples of times when God intends harm?

 

[Meow Mix]

Yes, there are times when it is shown that the God of the Bible does indeed intend harm.

Then God can't be benevolent.

Benevolence and malevolence are dichotomous, you can't be both. Either you are benevolent, or you are malevolent.

Human beings can change their minds; they can "reform" or become corrupted. An omniscient being can't change its mind -- that's a contradiction.

So God is eternally either benevolent or malevolent.

If God intentionally harms, then God is not benevolent by definition; and is therefore malevolent.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Then God can't be benevolent.
Benevolence and malevolence are dichotomous, you can't be both. Either you are benevolent, or you are malevolent.
Human beings can change their minds; they can "reform" or become corrupted. An omniscient being can't change its mind -- that's a contradiction.
So God is eternally either benevolent or malevolent.
If God intentionally harms, then God is not benevolent by definition; and is therefore malevolent.

God will execute wickedness. Psalm 92v7.

Didn't God change his mind at Jonah 3v10; 4v2?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's absurd. Are you saying that those that ascribe to the correct god and obey said god are protected from harm (presumably diseases like say hiv)... well... that's obviously not true.
Also I think you and I have different definitions of death. Even you believe jesus died... but are you going to argue that jesus didn't really die? because then jesus wasn't really sacrificed to himself/his father.
(i'm assuming you're christian because you use the word sin.)

According to Scripture now is the time for 'spiritual healing' so to speak.
'Physical healing' will Not take place until Jesus millennial reign over earth.
Rev 22v2.

Why would I argue or say Jesus didn't really die when of course he did.
Jesus believed according to his words recorded at John chapter eleven the dead are in a deep sleep-like state. Jesus would have gotten that idea from the Psalms [6v5;13v3;115v17; 146v4], and as Ecclesiastes [9vs5,10] says the dead know nothing. So at death Jesus knew nothing. Jesus did not resurrect himself. According to Scripture: God resurrected Jesus.
God did not leave Jesus in the grave. -Acts 2vs27,31.

According to Matt [28v20b] Jesus gave his soul or life as a ransom sacrifice for many. The 'many' would be the majority of mankind. Only exception Mt 12v32.
So Jesus was not sacrificed to himself/ his Father but for our sins.-Heb 9v26

The sins or disobedience of Satan and Adam were deliberate.
We as being imperfect can sin by mistake.
If one could stop sinning one would not get sick or die.
Since we can not stop sinning we die.
Since we can not resurrect oneself or another
we need someone that can do that for us.
Jesus can and he will.
Acts 24v15

 

[Noaidi]

Yes, there are times when it is shown that the God of the Bible does indeed intend harm.

So, then, the question arises: why does god intend harm to innocents?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Of course, since many who have no problem with evolution and common descent do believe there was a creation.
Can you elaborate on what you're saying here...?
Ok, look at the bolded and underlined part.
How does sin cause Plasmodium falciparum to evolve such terribly efficient methods?
Just stop and think for a second about where this organism came from, with all its methods and biology. Really think about it. It didn't come from nowhere. You say "sin" caused it, but how does "sin" magically cause an organism to be so efficient in such a specific way?
Either evolution happens or it doesn't, I'm not quite sure what you're arguing. Do you agree that irreducibly complex systems evolve, and that Plasmodium's method of evading the immune system is one such evolved system -- thus negating the creationist argument that irreducibly complex systems can't evolve? If you agree that it evolved, then you must agree with evolution and common descent, right?
If it did not evolve, where did Plasmodium get such a sophisticated way to dodge immune systems? If God is the source of all complexity, then you seriously have to imagine God Allmighty, the benevolent creator, "taking the time" to think up this thing to torture mankind with.
Either way, the prospects are not pretty for creationists who deny that the creator is a malevolent demon.

Is my understanding right about that some humans who descended from those who did not contract the Bubonic plague have no cell portals of entry for HIV so those would have a genetic advantage?

Random mutation or some changes are from '?' sources over the centuries, and we are farthest in history from when Adam originally had human perfection of sound mind and body.

Do we know if military experiments, or other's experiments, with viruses have not gone awry? Terribly wrong?

Originally wasn't the primary mode of transmission for HIV spread through sex and blood transfusions? God's warnings have always been against fornication and misuse of blood. [Acts 15v20,29] However, Scripture does refer to Satan as the 'god' of this world of badness- 2 Cor 4v4; Rev 12vs9,12.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, then, the question arises: why does god intend harm to innocents?

Adam [Satan too] was created with perfection of mind and body.
How was there harm intended by God saying to stay away from just one tree?
How many trees are there on earth? Out of all the trees on earth only one tree belonged to God. Only one tree was God's property.

Don't you feel you have a right to say what can be done with your property or what you own? Do you feel if you put up a no trespassing sign that it should be obeyed? By God saying 'don't touch' was in effect a no trespass sign.

If a neighbor told you that you can eat from all of his many fruit trees except for one tree, would you consider that as intent to harm you?

If someone had a very large beautiful house and told you the run of the house is yours except for just one small room, would that be intent to harm you?

Because we are innocent of Adam's passing down human imperfection to us we are innocent of that, but because we can not stop our own sinning we pay the price of sin which is death. Since we can not awaken oneself from death's deep sleep we need someone that can.
Jesus is the one who can do that and he will.
Acts 24v15.

 

[Noaidi]

Adam [Satan too] was created with perfection of mind and body.
How was there harm intended by God saying to stay away from just one tree?
How many trees are there on earth? Out of all the trees on earth only one tree belonged to God. Only one tree was God's property.

Don't you feel you have a right to say what can be done with your property or what you own? Do you feel if you put up a no trespassing sign that it should be obeyed? By God saying 'don't touch' was in effect a no trespass sign.

If a neighbor told you that you can eat from all of his many fruit trees except for one tree, would you consider that as intent to harm you?

If someone had a very large beautiful house and told you the run of the house is yours except for just one small room, would that be intent to harm you?

Because we are innocent of Adam's passing down human imperfection to us we are innocent of that, but because we can not stop our own sinning we pay the price of sin which is death. Since we can not awaken oneself from death's deep sleep we need someone that can.
Jesus is the one who can do that and he will.
Acts 24v15.

All very well and good, but my question was how can your god punish innocents? I'm talking about current innocents - what did they do to deserve 'punishment' by malaria, diarrhoea and innumerable other causes? All because someone ate some fruit that they weren't supposed to? A bit extreme, don't you think?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

All very well and good, but my question was how can your god punish innocents? I'm talking about current innocents - what did they do to deserve 'punishment' by malaria, diarrhoea and innumerable other causes? All because someone ate some fruit that they weren't supposed to? A bit extreme, don't you think?

According to Scripture isn't Satan extreme?
He is credited with being not only the 'god' of this world of badness but also credited with the world's 'woe' at Rev 12v9.

Sometimes it is 'greedy men' that keep food and medical supplies away from deserving people. That is one reason why Rev [11v18b] can say that God will bring to ruin those ruining the earth. Ecclesiastes [8v9] shows man has dominated man to his injury. Isn't that often the case because of not following the Golden Rule? If all on earth lived by and applied the Golden Rule wouldn't conditions be better on earth?

God can allow or permit what is going on because as Rev[21vs4,5] says God will make all things new, and as Isaiah wrote [65v17] these former things will be forgotten. In the meantime time has allowed us to be born and decide how we want to live. For example: by the Golden Rule or not.

Satan created an issue at Job [2v4]. By Satan saying 'a' man implies all of us.
Touch our bone and flesh [sickness] and see if man will not curse God.
Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Starting with those placed at Jesus right hand of favor [Matt 25v32] will have the opportunity to remain alive on earth and keep right on living right into Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when there will be no more pain, crying , sorrow and no more death. Earth's former woes will not be called to mind. Isa 65v17.

 

[Noaidi]

URAVIP2ME

Way too many biblical quotes in your response. What do you think about the situation? Leave the bible on the shelf and give me your response, please.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

URAVIP2ME
Way too many biblical quotes in your response. What do you think about the situation? Leave the bible on the shelf and give me your response, please.

Looking at the global scope, or the world's bigger and broader situation, we see innocent people starving, even where there is abundance, not only due to diseases [swine flu, bird flu, aids, cancer, mad cow, ebola, sars, TB, staff infection due to being dirty, etc], but due to the far and broad scope of earthquakes, wars, [some countries sell their food for weapons], terrorism destabilizing society, and an apparent economic meltdown. Perhaps the political world will want and go after the wealth the religious world has amassed. I think the political circumstances are at the point of a square off with the religious world or the world's modern religious system of things. With backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's false religious sector thus bringing an end to the dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today that is responsible for innocent bloodshed and also the bad religious conditions that have harmed the innocent.