The despised Cross of Christ

[InChrist]

I celebrate the life not the death, I recognise it ,do my 40 days most years , quietly not so you would notice,my other half asleep out cold to the world ,my time my own right now.
The cross a symbol , could of been a crown of thorns ,is a symbol doesn't mean much .
However the possibility that a man of Jesus s stature walked this earth , well that has a totaly different meaning .

I certainly celebrate life, too, but according to the scriptures, without the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sake of humanity there would be no new life to celebrate.

 

[InChrist]

I embrace it. When I took the sacraments and was baptized and died to myself in Christ, it meant something real to me. I can never despise a friend even if we decide not to see each other anymore.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and heart.

 

[InChrist]

I neither despise nor embrace it, I merely see it as spiritually ineffective (at least for me), and therefore, irrelevant.

Furthermore, the notion we're born sinful and bad seems to me to be a speculation that is largely meaningless. How would you actually go about demonstrating that?

I appreciate that you have shared your thoughts. I suppose I can't demonstrate to you that we are born with a sinful nature, but for me when I am honest with myself or see the behavior of everyone I've ever known or view the condition of the world it appears obvious that humans have a sin problem. That's my perspective, but I realize everyone sees things differently.

 

[Ingledsva]

*
The cross is a sun sign.

We have many sun references concerning YHVH in the Bible.

YHVH the Sun in his solar Chariot crossing the sky. From a Temple floor.

 

[InChrist]

I despise vapid preaching.

Well. I can appreciate the fact that you even took the time to read the thread, but I wonder why you even bothered to read or comment. I'm sure you know by now that my views, posts, or threads are boring and not to your liking or interest. I have to admit that I do sometimes enjoy the things you post.

 

[InChrist]

*
The cross is a sun sign.

We have many sun references concerning YHVH in the Bible.

YHVH the Sun in his solar Chariot crossing the sky. From a Temple floor.

That is not the cross this thread is referring to. Of course there are various similar symbols, but those are irrelevant to the subject.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thank you for expressing you thoughts about the cross. I just don't see the hope of the gospel or the work of Christ on the cross as having any connection to labeling things which bring joy as 'sinful" or how the true gospel message could possibly bring about depression or self-loathing.

Well, I was talking about puritanical forms of Christianity. For reference, an extreme example of puritan Christianity is that which conducted the Salem Witch Trials. (Most aren't anywhere near that extreme or dangerous, but puritanical thought does seem to underline a lot of US Christianity and culture in general). Makes no sense to me; even Jesus said "eat, drink, and be merry!"

However, the very notion of "humanity is inherently sinful" is very much going to reinforce self-loathing in a lot of people. It's probably not causal, since there's plenty of Christians who believe that doctrine and don't suffer from depression or self-loathing, but for such a person who is prone to these, that doctrine is toxic.

For reference, when I say "things that bring joy", I very much include sexual activities (restrained only by educated safety), celebrating on holidays, playing games of competition, etc.

However, as I am not a Christian, I leave it to Christians to determine a solution.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@InChrist

I can try to give some perspective of why in general one would despise something another finds love in. I know it sounds contradicting. I mean, many christians loathe pagan rituals etc as if they will catch some demonic disease from in it. Nothing is further than the truth. Id assume likewise the opposite but we just cant see it from your perspective. I guess its a two way thing.

Here are my thoughts. My point is above and the green leaves if you like to skip.

Death brings life

I dont mean to be harsh but in its simplest terms, thats how Christianity sees/defines paganism: the sacrifice of people, animals, gods etc all for their own god/s but not for the One True God.

Christianity has pagan sacrifices. It just limits it to one god.

However, most pagans I know and myself included don't sacrifice people. We dont give up things for our god/s in place of the one true god because like the one god there are so many others on that same level (from an outsiders view). Its like arguing over whose god gets the sacrifice (or in other terms "offering")

But pagans (people not of abrahamic religions) offer all sorts of things. We offer candles, incense, to food and water.

But never a child and never as a self sacrifice to save others that are only vows to their god not the physical saving of someone by loosing a life. Its like an army going into war with an invisible enemy and their country congradulates them for saving their country. The soilders say they did it for their commander.

Can you see why outsiders would be confused? A bit befundled over using death and non-present means to save someone today that the vow and claimed action was only written in the past?

I wouldnt despise christianity for using sacrifice as a means of salvation. Even more so, using that death to tell others they should die spiritually in the same manner that Christ did physically.

Then you have to understand not everyone feels they are spiritually dead and need a savior.

Many people despise christianity because of how many christians share this death-->life as a no way out but my way out deal. Its as if the soilders are unhappy that you arent rooting for the country when half of us dont see any enemies you killed for your country. A lot of it is behavior. I had one priest yell at me and another one spent four hours with me in confession. Some people told me I can loose my salvation. When I joined the Church, they said no I cannot.

People say the most contradicting and harsh things.

Anyway, I went off my points. Another reasons is the most famous "does god exist?"

Think about this InChrist without thinking about God/Christ.

If two men side by side asked me if I needed a ride and one guy says "I will take you. Dont worry. I have a criminal record. I murdered over fifty people because the didnt like me. I held one guy for ransom. But dont worry," he says in a very honest, nice, and loving voice, "come with me. I will take you where you need to go?"

The other guy has a husky voice. Baggy pants and a slight slur in his walk. He tells you he is from the city and grown up there all his life. He tells you "I didnt do anything wrong. I live around people who do bad things and people who do good. I live in the hood." then he says "did you want the ride or not? Stop staring at me." You dont like his tone.

But compared to the guy that murdered people, which guy would your ride with? Pretending that these two are telling the truth.

To many people god is like the first guy. You read in the Bible that he is a nice guy. People take rides from him and for some odd reason they get where they need to go. Then that outsider reads the Bible more and finds out this guys criminal record. That would make him so uncomfortable that to be a friend with a criminal (and not just one mind you) is like you befriending a pagan that insults your faith just by how she interacts with you. Im not saying that criminals cant be your friend. Just my point is, why be with someone you are uncomfortable with?

Especially people who value life. Why trust a guy who takes the lives of the very same people he gave life to?

I wouldnt despise god for this contradition and long example (sorry)...just it makes people uncomfortable and when treated unfairly and not given a chance to be open about their disagreements, of course they will despise. Not specifically to the religion (more than likely) just the people who represent it.

I started reading the Bible to my grandmothers now when I light a candle. They are christian and thats the best way I connect. This is what I read from just spontaneouslly opening a page:

But not so are the wicked, not so! They are like chaff drivenb y the wind. Therefore the wicked will not arise at the judgement nor will sinners in the assebly of the just because the Lord knows the way of thejust but the way of thewicked leads to ruin.

then the Lord says

You are not a god who delights in evil. No wicked person finds refuge with you the arrogant cannot standbefore your eyes. You hate all who do evil you destory those who speak fasley, abloodly and fradulent man the Lord adhors.

How in the world does a Christian find inspiration in this? The first guy, the murderer, is a guy just like you and I. Some non christians despise christianity because the wicked are just as use regular joe smoes. Why not help the wicked? Why call them wicked?

I have a co-worker who sliped something from her mouth, "I dont know where you will go in the afterlife," she paused, and re-adjusted herself, "anyway, um..." We were talking about religion and her hint was since Im not christian Im not going to heaven.

The Bible prompt her to think this.

When I read the Lotus Sutra and any other Sutra of the Buddhas none of them prompt any advice and motive that has anyone killing someone else because of disbelief in the Buddhas teachings. It is all positive. Its like a breathe of fresh air when coming from the bible. Because you are reading about life not death.

Anyway, I could go on.

For me personally, I found both life and death in the Church. Mass starts with being sinful. You come in with and get the blessings from god. Then you anoint your head to remember your baptism. As Mass comes along, so does your resurrection in Christ. The priest takes the sacrifical meal and offers it to the congregation. Now you have died in Christ. It doesnt end there. The rest of Mass marks his resurrection through his death. Its not the other way around.

So there is a lot of beauty in the Christianity.

Just people despise it because it is a contradicting faith not just on the little things as sat vs sun but on the big things like life vs death.

Take your time reading this if you are interested (nicely saying). Just wanted to give some insight.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The cross has no actual revelance or any kind of impact. I don't see it as anything to despise since there isn't any application to speak of. Its really moot and irrelevant as others mentioned for those not affiliated with christianity or similar.

I'm not a Christian anymore, so it dosent mean anything at all outside it being embraced as an iconic religious symbol or even a fashion statement.

 

[Deidre]

When I was an atheist, I didn't see at all the 'need' for the Jesus story. It meant nothing to me, over time. Now, returning to Christianity ...(I was a Christian before)...it means everything to me. The cross represents our struggles, and to embrace them...follow Christ as you embrace them, and He will bring you rest. Of course, the cross' significance means many things to me, but that is how I view it, in a broad sense. But, simply put, if you don't believe in a deity, or you follow a different religion, the cross will have little meaning, so this is why many alternate 'meanings' are given to the story.

 

[arthra]

The martyrdom of Jesus has significance for Baha'is as it is echoed in the sacrifice of the other Manifestations of God that have offered Their lives for the Cause of God:

It is for this purpose (that is, it is with regard to this wisdom) that the great Manifestations (of God) unveil themselves in this world, bear every difficulty and ordeal -- to make these ready souls dawnings of light and confer upon them eternal life. This is the real atonement that His holiness Christ made-He sacrificed Himself for the life of the world.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 542

 

[averageJOE]

The crucifix was nothing more than an instrument to torture and kill someone. Here is a funny, but relevant video:

 

[Yoshua]

Anyone who has read 'The Scriptures' referred to in the quoted passage knows or should be able to discern that this is talking about Judaism (or some form of it), since there is no prediction anywhere of the premature death of a messiah. Contrarily there are numerous prophecies of the resurrection of Israel. By taking it out of its cultural context the verse you quote dies and becomes dead words. For Paul, Scripture refers to the Jewish canon, which refers to the resurrection of Israel which Paul is calling Christ. The real problem is you than claim that Paul is teaching you about an afterlife, which he plainly is not doing and by insisting upon a story that cannot in any way be consistent with 'The Scriptures' if it is about afterlife or the reanimation of one man. The passage plainly states "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures," the very scriptures which do not predict the resurrection of any individual but of Israel's community. In other words, the scriptures to which Paul refers are themselves not saying what you say that he is saying that they are saying. Then to prop up your claim you refer to the gospel stories about Jesus, but a simple study of the gospels shows that they, too, cannot be taken literally as they also are about fulfillment(s) pertaining to Judaism or Israel and not a man. You have a contextual void, and in that you work your magic.

Hi Brick,

Apostle Paul delivered 1 Cor. 15:3-4 as message to the Corinthians about Christ's death and resurrection. The "Scriptures" is based on the Old testament prophecy about Christ (Isa. 53:5-6, Isa. 53:12). Now, we have the record Paul's letters to Corinthians, it is still does not defeat the purpose the importance of Christ death and resurrection (Ps. 16:10). Truly, Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures which is based on the prophetic fulfillment (from the Old testament to New Testament).

If 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not considered a gospel or good news, what do you think should be the gospel? Do you know any?

Refusing the cross is Paul's way of describing the refusal to deny ones self and become part of the body of Christ, no longer being an individual but part of Christ. This is the thing that many people have trouble doing. They refuse to fellowship with people that disagree with themselves, who are of a different personality or color or culture, have a different social status and so forth. It is the battle of christ versus antichrist that rages in society, not a battle having to do with humanism. This is about the unique challenge of bringing everyone closer together and is not against humanism. Humanism is not spite for the cross.

So, who do you consider the anti-christ that rages the society?

Thanks

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I certainly celebrate life, too, but according to the scriptures, without the death of Jesus Christ on the cross for the sake of humanity there would be no new life to celebrate.

My interpretation is Jesus died on the cross for those that are unable to accept the responsibility themselves .
In theory God payed the ultimate price to buy himself out of the dilemma of what to do about humanity.
Personally think ,God failed when he made compromise with Noah .
I have no problems with the cross symbol myself I have no such need for those things , the cross is more a reminder of how disgusting humans can be for myself.
Problem I found with the new world is almost everything as been blow out of proportion including religion , is an american new world way of doing things that sometimes imho borders the ridiculous.

 

[wizanda]

Do you think that when or if one decides to follow the teachings of Yeshua at a certain point in their life this then erases all their past sins?

God chooses to erase sins, based on our karma balance... So doing lots of good turns, be merciful and kind, then God might forgive your sins, as you've forgiven others.

I think according to the scriptures when one places there faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross then they become a new creation and Christ's workmanship, thereby wouldn't they be following Christ's teachings?

That follows Paul's Pharisaic Christianity, and shows you're not following Yeshua in the slightest....

• Where did Yeshua say anything about dying with him on the cross?
• Where did Yeshua say place faith in him or his death?
• The scriptures aren't finished, that is only stated in the made up gospel of John.
  
• Why would you become a new creation, by making a covenant with death?

Sorry, yet when you're following Paul, John and Simon the stone (petros), you're most likely not following Yeshua, and have been mislead by the prophesied deception.

 

[metis]

Thank you for sharing your perspective. I think if one is led to believe that only a single politically correct belief is required then they probably never actually placed their belief in Jesus Christ and submitted their life to Him because according to the scriptures faith in Christ's death on the cross and resurrection brings about death to the old nature and new life to the person in Christ..

The key word above is the word "in", and why that's so important is that Jesus' main message was really a call to action, not p.c. belief. The "Sermon in the Mount", for example, was a motivational speech for people to get off their duffs and actually do something to help others. Jesus' "Parable of the Sheep & Goats" condemns the idea that belief alone is enough, as the "goats" believe about Jesus but not in Jesus.

Luther did Christianity a great disservice when he cherry-picked Paul's writings and came out with his "saved by faith alone" doctrine, which Paul actually denied if one reads his epistles in their entirety. What it has done is to create a whole segment of the population that think they can do anything and that it doesn't really matter what they do in the eyes of God because they have this p.c. belief about Jesus-- "I'm saved!". As Gandhi said about them: "They elevated the man and forgot his message".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm a Catholic, so of course I don't despise the cross. I'm wearing a crucifix right now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Whoever you are, whatever you believe, do you despise or embrace what the cross of Jesus Christ represents?

The Cross of Christ represents the abandonment of justice. It's about inflicting terrible punishment on the only person who could be honestly said to deserve no punishment at all.

The Cross of Christ represents the abandonment of mercy. It's about inflicting, not relieving, terrible suffering.

Of course I despise what the cross represents. There's nothing good in it.

A question for you: if you love Christ, how can you love the God who would demand or inflict (choose whichever reflects your theology) this on him?

Edit: how can you claim to be Christlike if you revel in his suffering? Would Christ revel in the suffering of another?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Apostle Paul delivered 1 Cor. 15:3-4 as message to the Corinthians about Christ's death and resurrection. The "Scriptures" is based on the Old testament prophecy about Christ (Isa. 53:5-6, Isa. 53:12).

In plain non-figurative language Christ is a new extended concept of Judaism, not a person. This prophecy that you say is about Christ, Isaiah says is about Israel, very plainly so. See Isaiah 49, particularly verse 3 where Isaiah tells you straight that the servant is Israel; and all of the intervening verses are about Israel's fall, sufferings and return. Paul knows this, and his concept of Christ is a renewed Israel. In Jewish prophecies the sufferings are to refine, refine, refine. The people are refined and made even better until this results in a light so bright that the world is transformed, so the sufferings of Christ are for the world's sake. In prophecy the temple becomes a temple of prayer for all people not only for Jews. The story of Jesus illustrates this. Three temples are destroyed. Therefore Christ dies for three days and three nights for the world's sake. It is all based upon the scriptures about the refining of a holy people, and it is very plain what happens, what Christ is, what Christians are supposed to be like.

If 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is not considered a gospel or good news, what do you think should be the gospel? Do you know any?

Its important that you work that out for yourself. If you change your false assumption about Isaiah 53, perhaps that changes other things for you. I am not inside your mind, so work out for yourself then what is the gospel.

So, who do you consider the anti-christ that rages the society?

Thanks

Peter doesn't use the term antichrist, but Peter does talk about the enemy and how to resist in 1 Peter 5. So does James. So does Paul. Paul says "Be excellent in what is good and innocent of evil, and the God of peace with crush Satan." (paraphrased). Peter says "And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast." James says "Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless." Overall, after doing some reading it becomes apparent that the antichrist opposes Christ, which is what makes it antichrist.

 

[viole]

I'm a Catholic, so of course I don't despise the cross. I'm wearing a crucifix right now.

You mean an engraved image of God (or 1/3 thereof)?

Ciao

- viole