Revelations 12: 9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
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The Devil, the Serpent, Satan, and Lucifer,
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Revelations 12: 9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Thank you for the laugh. I find you perspective funny, and you are welcome to it.
This one is even more funny - because this is also what I say - namely, that is says it is man that is being discussed; which I have pointed out before. Thus, the claim that satan is Lucifer is opposed by the scripture saying that this person is a 'man'. What I don't disagree with, however, is that many of the things said in that chapter might well be applied to satan, though there is no evidence for it.
But, you still believe in a chaos creator, so to say.
What is funny is that you think repeating an error saying that I believe in a chaos god, is somehow hurtful to me. LOL.
Obviously you haven't paid attention. I'm Agnostic.
As to Isaiah 14 - none of it is about a Satan character.
Isaiah 14 starts -
Isa 14:1 For YHVH will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
Isa 14:2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of YHVH for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.
The Hebrews captivity came when the king of Babylon destroyed Jerusalem in 586 B.C.
Obviously not about a fallen angel. It is consistant to the end with a HUMAN King and KINGDOM.
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor failed! the golden city failed!
Isa 14:5 YHVH hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the scepter of the rulers.
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven (a height), O Bright rising star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven (the heights), I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol/grave, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou (also a King) art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; a carcass trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them (the other Kings) in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Isa 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
Isa 14:22 For I will rise up against them, saith YHVH of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith YHVH.
Isa 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.
Isa 14:28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.
Isa 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole Philistia, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.
"The Lord of hosts has purposed to break the Assyrian's yoke, and every rod of the wicked laid upon the lot of the righteous; and who shall disannul this purpose? Who can persuade him to recall it, or find out a plea to evade it? His hand is stretched out to execute this purpose; and who has power enough to turn it back or to stay the course of his judgments?"
II. Assurance is likewise given of the destruction of the Philistines and their power. This burden, this prophecy, that lay as a load upon them, to sink their state, came in the year that king Ahaz died, which was the first year of Hezekiah's reign, Isa_14:28. "
"1. A rebuke to the Philistines for triumphing in the death of king Uzziah. He had been as a serpent to them (Isa_14:29), had bitten them, had smitten them, had brought them very low, 2Ch_26:6. He warred against the Philistines, broke down their walls, and built cities among them. But when Uzziah died, or rather abdicated, it was told with joy in Gath and published in the streets of Ashkelon. It is inhuman thus to rejoice in our neighbour's fall. But let them not be secure; for though when Uzziah was dead they made reprisals upon Ahaz, and took many of the cities of Judah (2Ch_28:18), yet out of the root of Uzziah should come a cockatrice, a more formidable enemy than Uzziah was, even Hezekiah, the fruit of whose government should be to them a fiery flying serpent, for he should fall upon them with incredible swiftness and fury: we find he did so. 2Ki_18:8, He smote the Philistines even to Gaza."
"(2.) By war. When the needy of God's people shall lie down in safety, not terrified with the alarms of war, but delighting in the songs of peace, then every gate and every city of the Philistines shall be howling and crying (Isa_14:31), and there shall be a total dissolution of their state; for from Judea, which lay north of the Philistines, there shall come a smoke (a vast army raising a great dust, a smoke that shall be the indication of a devouring fire at hand), and none of all that army shall be alone in his appointed times; ..." Matthew Henry's Commentary On The Whole Bible.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
We know Isaiah 14 is about a human King because it tells us so all the way through, and we have other books covering the same wars.
See my post # 22.
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That has nothing to do with my post. Please don't quote me with your misrepresentations. Thank you in advance.
Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Why would I want to hurt?! Make fun of, perhaps. You guys who claim to be atheists still claim that all creation we see around us came to be through no agency at all. So, I give this agency a name, that is all.
After all, you. as an atheist, get involved in my affairs as a Christian and tell me how wrong I am. Isn't that an attempt to be hurtful. You have your beliefs, we have ours. You leave me alone, and I leave you alone. You bug me, and I bug you.
Should you be surprised that this is how things work. I think not.
Lucifer:
I thought I made it very clear that I also agree with you in that Lucifer is not a reference to satan. I agree with you on this and in the past my posts on this subject always make it clear that that chapter speaks about a human, and to verify this, please look at my post #20 and read carefully how I agreed with you.
In another previous post, I guess I couldn't spell Revelation. Sorry about that.
Getting a bit sloppy, it seems. But, then you missed what I said in #20; so, it seems we have something in common.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You posted it to a post about Isaiah 14, so obviously it was.
He asked, - concerning my answer and his research - showing no such info in Tanakh, - where you folks were getting this.
You gave the NT verse.
Earlier you associated the serpent to Satan, - which Tanakh does not, - and to a list of names including Lucifer.
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Oh really? Because I was responding to a question directly asked of me here:
I was not responding to the Isaiah portion.
If you continue to harass me with your misrepresentations I will have to report you. Please stop immediately.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Again - AGNOSTIC.
After all, you. as an atheist, get involved in my affairs as a Christian and tell me how wrong I am. Isn't that an attempt to be hurtful. You have your beliefs, we have ours. You leave me alone, and I leave you alone. You bug me, and I bug you.
Should you be surprised that this is how things work. I think not.
How is normal debate about what a religious text says - hurtful? Is it hurtful when you discuss Islam, or any other religion, with a follower of that religion, telling them they have got things wrong?
Lucifer:
I thought I made it very clear that I also agree with you in that Lucifer is not a reference to satan. I agree with you on this and in the past my posts on this subject always make it clear that that chapter speaks about a human, and to verify this, please look at my post #20 and read carefully how I agreed with you.
In another previous post, I guess I couldn't spell Revelation. Sorry about that.
I missed nothing in 20. In 20 You continued on with that part about other things in that text possibly referring to Satan.
"... What I don't disagree with, however, is that many of the things said in that chapter might well be applied to satan, though there is no evidence for it."
So - I showed that the whole text - top to bottom refers to a Babylonian King and a real war, retold in several of the Tanakh books.
And I included a Christian scholarly commentary on the text to back that up.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
You may not have been responding to the Isaiah portion - but the question to you included my post which was concerning it.
As you can see from his post - he quoted from my post about Satan, Lucifer Isaiah 14, and them not being the serpent. - which was in answer to a post saying they and "Lucifer" were all the same, - and he asked you the question. Thus my answer to you.
Ingledsva said:
Ingledsva said:
skwim said:
skwim said:
That quote was from, and referring to, my post #11 about Satan, Lucifer in Isaiah 14, and nowhere in Tanakh an association with the serpent for any of those names.
Ingledsva said:
I was not harassing you by posting to you.
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Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
Either misunderstanding or me being unfortunately fuzzy in my phrasing. What I think is that the though that chapter clearly refers as Lucifer in human terms, male actually, many of the things applied to this man could also be applied to the angel that became satan. This happens at times that there are parallels. That is not to say that this was intended, of course.
I can see from your post, the quote to this subject, that I was careful enough to phrase it as meant to be. Parallels do happen. If the shoe fits, etc. In this case it seems to fit somewhat satan's feet. Since I acknowledged the subject isn't satan, what's the problem? You cannot recognize when there are things that seem to apply to others also?!
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
But you did associate the text with Satan by saying -
Grandiseur said:
It is actually a story about a real event, - and is also told from different views in several other Tanakh texts.
You would have to say ALL of those texts' with the same story, seem to apply to Satan, which of course is not true.
Christianity messed this one up, - by deciding one of several stories about the same event, - was actually about Lucifer/Satan, and teaching it for generations. Now most Christians can't give up the idea that it contains Satan.
Which makes discussion about the text hard.
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Grandliseur
Well-Known Member
I used to be quite hard lined, as my material on my website may still show signs of since I haven't updated it in quite a while. Now, I take another path many times.
My problem is what I believe. What others believe is their problem. I shall be judged from what I do. Others will have to take their own chances.
I used to take the hard line on Lucifer, standing strongly against that claim. Now, I just show that it speaks of a man, and admit that there are parallels to what is claimed about satan. Parallels about which we only can say are nothing but assertions without evidence.
I don't even see what is important about that particular question at all. Thus, to me making a big fuss about it - is a bit silly, a waste of time. Whether one way or the other, there is nothing about this: his name being Lucifer or not - that matters one iota.
Skwim
Veteran Member
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james bond
Well-Known Member
He didn't alter his form to a serpent, but talked though a serpent. Today, it's through CNN.
No picture? Click here.
https://stiltonsplace.blogspot.com/
Remember, the libs like to keep track of asteroids passing millions, if not thousands, of miles away and think that's science.
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TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
There is only one and that is Satan. He's not really a bad guy as to say his motive isn't really to hurt you, but more as to test one's faith in God.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Really. Well this isn't how the Bible tells it.
Luke 13:16
16 This woman that I healed is a true descendant of Abraham. But Satan has held her for 18 years. Surely it is not wrong for her to be made free from her sickness on a Sabbath day!”
John 8:42-44
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.
John 13:2
During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
1 Thessalonians 2:17–18
17 Brothers and sisters, we were separated from you for a short time. But even though we were not there, our thoughts were still with you. We wanted very much to see you, and we tried very hard to do this. 18 Yes, we wanted to come to you. I, Paul, tried more than once to come, but Satan stopped us.
1 Peter 5:8
8 Control yourselves and be careful! The devil is your enemy, and he goes around like a roaring lion looking for someone to attack and eat.
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Revelation 12:9-10
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
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16 This woman that I healed is a true descendant of Abraham. But Satan has held her for 18 years. Surely it is not wrong for her to be made free from her sickness on a Sabbath day!”
John 8:42-44
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were really your Father, you would love me. I came from God, and now I am here. I did not come by my own authority. God sent me. 43 You don’t understand the things I say, because you cannot accept my teaching. 44 Your father is the devil. You belong to him. You want to do what he wants. He was a murderer from the beginning. He was always against the truth. There is no truth in him. He is like the lies he tells. Yes, the devil is a liar. He is the father of lies.
John 13:2
During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him,
2 Thessalonians 2:9
9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved.
1 Thessalonians 2:17–18
17 Brothers and sisters, we were separated from you for a short time. But even though we were not there, our thoughts were still with you. We wanted very much to see you, and we tried very hard to do this. 18 Yes, we wanted to come to you. I, Paul, tried more than once to come, but Satan stopped us.
1 Peter 5:8
8 Control yourselves and be careful! The devil is your enemy, and he goes around like a roaring lion looking for someone to attack and eat.
2 Corinthians 11:3
3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
Revelation 12:9-10
9 It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
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TheBannerofHomuraAkemi
Active Member
I like you using the resources. But couldn't that just be writing that the early church used to create an image of a villain to help keep control of their flock?
On the subject of Adam and Eve. The serpent quote God's word to her wrongly testing her knowledge of it. She failed and thus Adam and Eve was kicked out of the garden.
Satan as evil already appeared in Jewish Apocrypha before there was such a thing as the early church. This idea was in the popular imagination and naturally showed up in Christian literature. See the Jewish Encyclopedia
Skwim
Veteran Member
Gotta ask the Bible believers.
But couldn't that just be writing that the early church used to create an image of a villain to help keep control of their flock?
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