The Devil's Toolbox

[sojourner]

Satan does not appear in Genesis. Period. The serpent is wisdom. This is consistent with the particular mythos from which the creation myths are drawn.

 

[Brian2]

Satan does not appear in Genesis. Period. The serpent is wisdom. This is consistent with the particular mythos from which the creation myths are drawn.

The passages below seem to show us otherwise.
Romans 16:20 ESV
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Revelation 20:2 ESV
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Revelation 12:9 ESV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

 

[metis]

Even within Judaism, there's debate as to whether haSatan is a real character or whether it's symbolic of part of our own human nature to rebel and not follow the Law.

 

[LightofTruth]

Even within Judaism, there's debate as to whether haSatan is a real character or whether it's symbolic of part of our own human nature to rebel and not follow the Law.

Seek understanding?....get to the ROOT first.

"No one who is being tempted should say, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires.
Then desire, after it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is brought to completion, gives birth to death." James 1:13-15

 

[metis]

Seek understanding?....get to the ROOT first.

"No one who is being tempted should say, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one.
But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires.
Then desire, after it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is brought to completion, gives birth to death." James 1:13-15

What does that have to do with what I posted?

 

[LightofTruth]

What does that have to do with what I posted?

It's inspired authority on the origin of evil. Of which the "Christian" sects are clueless.

 

[metis]

It's inspired authority on the origin of evil. Of which the "Christian" sects are clueless.

I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other.

 

[LightofTruth]

I don't have an opinion on this one way or the other.

Adam and Eve had desires of the flesh. That's where temptation comes from. The temptation was conceived and gave birth to sin, and the sin gave birth to their death.

Jesus came to destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil. IOW, sin has the power of death. And sin begins in the flesh with its desires. So, when Jesus' flesh was crucified, the sin which dwells in the flesh was condemned by God. Rom 8:3

God accepted Jesus' sacrifice to atone for sin.

 

[Brian2]

Just curious, but has anyone ever considered that scriptures about Satan, or what he does or did, can mean anything to anyone, depending on how they choose to interpret scripture?

...Kind of like competing conspiracy theories.

I think if you believe what the New Testament says about Satan, he is certainly a living being.

 

[sojourner]

The passages below seem to show us otherwise.
Romans 16:20 ESV
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
Revelation 20:2 ESV
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Revelation 12:9 ESV
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies.

Only if you bother to not exegete the texts. Reread Genesis 2. What does it actually say? What is the origin of the creation myths? NT content does not inform Genesis.

 

[Brian2]

Even within Judaism, there's debate as to whether haSatan is a real character or whether it's symbolic of part of our own human nature to rebel and not follow the Law.

It is clear however from the New Testament that Satan is a real character. Even parts of the Jewish non canonical scriptures show us that, and that Satan was not a part of our human nature. (consider Jude, which is NT but quotes the older scriptures.)

 

[Brian2]

Only if you bother to not exegete the texts. Reread Genesis 2. What does it actually say? What is the origin of the creation myths? NT content does not inform Genesis.

Anthropology on the origins of the Jewish religion does not inform Genesis for a believer in the Bible. The New Testament does.
I could take the stories in Genesis 1-3, and even further, to be myths and symbolic. But I don't.

 

[sojourner]

Anthropology on the origins of the Jewish religion does not inform Genesis for a believer in the Bible. The New Testament does.
I could take the stories in Genesis 1-3, and even further, to be myths and symbolic. But I don't.

You could actually exegete the texts. But you don’t.

 

[metis]

It is clear however from the New Testament that Satan is a real character. Even parts of the Jewish non canonical scriptures show us that, and that Satan was not a part of our human nature. (consider Jude, which is NT but quotes the older scriptures.)

He is dealt with that way, but we should always remember that many of the narratives have symbolic interpretations. The Suffering Servant narrative in Isaiah is another example of this approach, as that is a reference to Israel during the Babylonian Exile.

 

[Brian2]

You could actually exegete the texts. But you don’t.

Please show me what you mean by that. Maybe I am just reading stuff into them that is not there. Show me how you might exegete the texts about the serpent.

 

[Brian2]

He is dealt with that way, but we should always remember that many of the narratives have symbolic interpretations. The Suffering Servant narrative in Isaiah is another example of this approach, as that is a reference to Israel during the Babylonian Exile.

The suffering servant narrative also has the straight forward interpretation of being about one person who suffered and died because God placed on Him the sins of us all.
Israel was not being offered as a sacrifice for sin in Babylon, Israel was being punished for breaking the covenant.
I'm sure the Jews like to see the suffering servant as about Israel in these days also and in a sense it could be, but the more full explanation, the one that agrees with the all of what Isa 53 says is the interpretation about the one person who is the suffering servant.
Similarly with the Serpent. Symbolically the serpent is connected to our weak human nature, but the fuller picture and the one that agrees with all of what it says, is that the serpent is a living being. When I say "what it says" I mean what the whole of scripture says, as the picture is better when we look at the whole of scripture.
Some people just look at something in Genesis and what they get from that is what is meant throughout all of scripture. I'm referring specifically to the JWs here and what they say about the "breath of life" being a "life force", but we don't want to get all of our understanding from just Genesis.

 

[sojourner]

Please show me what you mean by that. Maybe I am just reading stuff into them that is not there. Show me how you might exegete the texts about the serpent.

1) In the exegetical process, newer texts do not inform what older texts actually say; the text under consideration simply says what it says. Just because a later writer says that the serpent is Satan does not mean that’s what the writer of the text meant.
2) The second creation myth is lifted from a much earlier Sumerian myth. In the Sumerian mythos, the serpent is wisdom. (That’s why, for example, the medical symbol, the caduceus is a serpent entwined around a staff. Not because “Satan is at work,” but because wisdom is at work in the medical arts.)
3) In that Sumerian myth, Wisdom is a pariah — a “trickster” — just as Wisdom tricks Eve.
4) The stories are not meant to be literal history; they’re allegories. That’s what the study of ancient literature tells us.

That’s the short version. Due to Covid, I don’t have access to all my texts for a deeper explanation. The later writers are doing eisegesis on the earlier texts.

 

[metis]

The suffering servant narrative also has the straight forward interpretation of being about one person who suffered and died because God placed on Him the sins of us all.

Actually, it's not, but so many Christians have applied this to Jesus even though it doesn't deal with him because of the references to both the important of adherence to the 613 Commandments, which Christians don't do, and also places and events mentioned do not apply to Jesus' time.

"Jerome's Bible Commentary" points this out, thus stating that the Suffering Servant narrative is about Israel personified but that it also "prefigures" a future Messiah that would be fulfilled with Jesus.

Here is another source:
Suffering servant. The figure in Deutro-Isaiah who bears suffering in hope of redemption, perhaps an individual, but understood as Israel in exile. It was applied to Jesus. -- Suffering servant | Encyclopedia.com

 

[Brian2]

1) In the exegetical process, newer texts do not inform what older texts actually say; the text under consideration simply says what it says. Just because a later writer says that the serpent is Satan does not mean that’s what the writer of the text meant.
2) The second creation myth is lifted from a much earlier Sumerian myth. In the Sumerian mythos, the serpent is wisdom. (That’s why, for example, the medical symbol, the caduceus is a serpent entwined around a staff. Not because “Satan is at work,” but because wisdom is at work in the medical arts.)
3) In that Sumerian myth, Wisdom is a pariah — a “trickster” — just as Wisdom tricks Eve.
4) The stories are not meant to be literal history; they’re allegories. That’s what the study of ancient literature tells us.

That’s the short version. Due to Covid, I don’t have access to all my texts for a deeper explanation. The later writers are doing eisegesis on the earlier texts.

Does Jesus also do eisegesis on the earlier texts?
Do you see the Bible as inspired by God or are you taking an anthropology approach?

 

[sojourner]

none of this addresses my post. However.

Does Jesus also do eisegesis on the earlier texts?

There are no “earlier texts” for Jesus.

Do you see the Bible as inspired by God or are you taking an anthropology approach?

I’m taking an exegetical approach. Anthropology is part of that approach. The issue of divine provenance is immaterial to exegesis. It only applies to to how we feel about what the texts say; it does not inform what the texts say.