The Disciple John and Jesus

[Fool]

so did John not believe Jesus was the Absolute God when he wrote the letter 1 John? especially chapter 4 where he says, " 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."?

 

[Spice]

It is my understanding of the NT that no one that ever walked with Jesus believed him to be God. They believed he had an extraordinary personal relationship with the Father and therefore a unique perspective. But Jesus told his followers that they too, could reach that knowledge and understanding. He was the Hope and the Promise that all could achieve "salvation", which is not a word I'm convinced is accurate.

 

[Kenny]

so did John not believe Jesus was the Absolute God when he wrote the letter 1 John? especially chapter 4 where he says, " 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."?

Buzzards look for dead meat
Eagles look for live prey
Both find what they are looking for.

The moral of that story is that if you find what you are looking for.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[Kenny]

It is my understanding of the NT that no one that ever walked with Jesus believed him to be God. They believed he had an extraordinary personal relationship with the Father and therefore a unique perspective. But Jesus told his followers that they too, could reach that knowledge and understanding. He was the Hope and the Promise that all could achieve "salvation", which is not a word I'm convinced is accurate.

Yes… there were many things they did not understand until after the resurrection

 

[PearlSeeker]

so did John not believe Jesus was the Absolute God when he wrote the letter 1 John? especially chapter 4 where he says, " 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."?

No one except the Son of God. The author of The Gospel of John also wrote:

No one has seen God at any time; God the only Son, who is in the arms of the Father, He has explained Him. (John 1:18)

 

[Fool]

Buzzards look for dead meat
Eagles look for live prey
Both find what they are looking for.

The moral of that story is that if you find what you are looking for.

1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

and so the dualist believes but forgets to question. the example isn't an exception and "ALL" shall be changed in a flash of lighning to the experiential observer. better to know than believe


God doesn't have a beginning nor an end. all was created in instant because time or space isn't relative to an infinite, god.

 

[TiggerII]

so did John not believe Jesus was the Absolute God when he wrote the letter 1 John? especially chapter 4 where he says, " 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."?

.............................................

John 20:31 - John sums up his Gospel​

The conclusion of John was not the blockbuster news that Jesus was God. It wasn't that Jesus was equal to God in any sense. In spite of mistranslations and misinterpretations of many Bible translators, John clearly stated what Jesus believed at John 17:3. But even more clearly is John's personal statement concerning the conclusion of his Gospel.

John 20:30: "Jesus did many other miraculous signs which are not recorded in this book. 31: But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. - New International Version Study Bible (NIVSB), Zondervan, 1985.

And the footnote for John 20:31 in the NIVSB says: “…. This whole Gospel is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God”.

But ‘Messiah’ and ‘son of God’ were never understood to mean God Himself!

In the language of the OT ... rulers and judges, as deputies of the heavenly King, could “be given the honorific title ‘god’ ... or be called ‘son of God’.” - footnote for Ps. 82:1, NIVSB.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible (trinitarian), p. 591, Bethany House, 1982: “In Job 1:6; 38:7 this name [‘sons of God’] is applied to the angels.”

An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm, 1945 ed., p. 726, “Son of God: Hebrew religion was strictly monotheistic, and the term ‘Son of God’, as found in the OT, must not be understood in any literal sense. It has its origin in the Semitic idiom which expresses any intimate relation as one of sonship. As royal ministers are sons of the king, so the angels are sons of God, and this name is likewise given to judges and sovereigns, ruling in God’s name.”

So we see that John’s whole Gospel was to show who was the Messiah! If he had believed in the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’), he would certainly have made a great, unmistakably clear declaration of it!! But he did not!

This is of great importance since none of the earlier Gospels made any clear statement showing Jesus to be God! If any such thing were believed by the Apostles and Bible writers, it would have to be found here in John’s conclusion!

 

[Colt]

so did John not believe Jesus was the Absolute God when he wrote the letter 1 John? especially chapter 4 where he says, " 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us."?

The apostles indicate that they came to regard Jesus as divine. Their thoughts about him continued to develop after returning from the death of his mortal body on his own volition as he said that he would. When John wrote many years later, he indicates that he believed Jesus was divine and with the Father before this world ever existed, that earth was even created through him. A divine Son would be conscious of being ancestral to God Absolute and having a beginning at some point in the eternal past.

Jesus was a miraculous individual who was cryptic about his true identity.

 

[Kenny]

God doesn't have a beginning nor an end. all was created in instant because time or space isn't relative to an infinite, god.

The Word has no beginning and no end.

 

[Fool]

The apostles indicate that they came to regard Jesus as divine. Their thoughts about him continued to develop after returning from the death of his mortal body on his own volition as he said that he would. When John wrote many years later, he indicates that he believed Jesus was divine and with the Father before this world ever existed, that earth was even created through him. A divine Son would be conscious of being ancestral to God Absolute and having a beginning at some point in the eternal past.

Jesus was a miraculous individual who was cryptic about his true identity.

Everything is with god before it was created and it still is with god after created.
.

Jeremiah 23:24

 

[Fool]

The Word has no beginning and no end.

then "your" gospel is wrong because it reads, "in the beginning was the word".

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


that doesn't read the word was before the beginning.

that which is infinite can't be before or after, or otherwise. an infinite isn't exclusively linear.

we know the logos is god but that doesn't mean god is exclusively the logos.

 

[Colt]

Everything is with god before it was created and it still is with god after created.
.

Jeremiah 23:24

I don’t remember being with God before this world was created. Jesus did remember that.

 

[Fool]

I don’t remember being with God before this world was created. Jesus did remember that.

rememberance isn't necessary. the spirit doesn't have a human name, even though humans give it different names at different times and in differents place. plenty of cases where people remember past lives

John 3:8

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

 

[Kenny]

then "your" gospel is wrong because it reads, "in the beginning was the word".

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


that doesn't read the word was before the beginning.

that which is infinite can't be before or after, or otherwise. an infinite isn't exclusively linear.

we know the logos is god but that doesn't mean god is exclusively the logos.

Or, we can understand grammar construction.

It didn’t say “The Word started in the beginning” but rather “In the beginning" God was there"

Unless you understand that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” means God started existing there

 

[Colt]

rememberance isn't necessary. the spirit doesn't have a human name, even though humans give it different names at different times and in differents place. plenty of cases where people remember past lives

John 3:8

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

The Son of God existed with the Father in the eternal past before the Son created this world weather people give him a name or not.

 

[Fool]

Or, we can understand grammar construction.

It didn’t say “The Word started in the beginning” but rather “In the beginning" God was there"

Unless you understand that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.” means God started existing there

an uncreated doesn't have a beginning or end, all created things, forms have a beginning and yet god is within, intrinsic to them.

John 1:3 there was nothing created that wasn't created of it. AUM

why do you suppose the name is I WILL BE what I WILL BE?


and that light is within all mankind, you call it christ. you are the light of the world, who hides a candle under a basket?

some called it phanes

colossians 3:11

 

[Fool]

The Son of God existed with the Father in the eternal past before the Son created this world weather people give him a name or not.

all the sons of god exist with the father. the father has no past, no future, just NOW.

so the first would be an elder son but not the only son

again

why do you suppose the name above all names? I WILL BE what I WILL BE? or I AM that I AM?

 

[Colt]

all the sons of god exist with the father. the father has no past, no future, just NOW.

so the first would be an elder son but not the only son

again

why do you suppose the name above all names? I WILL BE what I WILL BE? or I AM that I AM?

The Eternal I AM transcends time and space, but sons, any sons are ancestral not co-eternal. The Sons of God such as Christ Michael had a beginning in the eternal past, but we don't know when.

The material universe is a function of time.

Man cannot say that "before Abraham was I AM". That's fundamentally false.

 

[Fool]

The Eternal I AM transcends time and space, but sons, any sons are ancestral not co-eternal. The material universe is a function of time.
Man cannot say that "before Abraham was I AM". that's fundamentally false.

not as the spirit it isn't.

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

this is why you are to pray, "Our Father....................."

and again those who understand that they were born of Spirit vs the dead were born of flesh.

revelation 2:11

the body is a grave in which the spirit is encased. if it doesn't awake, arise before the second death, then it doesn't overcome this created world and can't experience the coming of the son of man in his glory and will possibly have to repeat the process to overcome it death/rebirth in the gross body

revelation 20:6

 

[Colt]

not as the spirit it isn't.

19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

this is why you are to pray, "Our Father....................."

and again those who understand that they were born of Spirit vs the dead were born of flesh.

revelation 2:11

the body is a grave in which the spirit is encased. if it doesn't awake, arise before the second death, then it doesn't overcome this created world and can't experience the coming of the son of man in his glory and will possibly have to repeat the process to overcome it death/rebirth in the gross body

revelation 20:6

Man has a beginning in time.