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The dishonest use of the name "Christian"

Shermana

Heretic
Here's a thought: Jesus never condemned homosexuals. He didn't even condemn prostitutes. WHAT WAS HE THINKING???

Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. NIV

Key word: "Innocent".

If Jesus truly was upholding the Law, he wouldn't call anyone who violated the Levitical standards "innocent". If Jesus wasn't upholding the Law, he wouldn't have been Christ.

Did Jesus not condemn animal molestation either?

Does that mean you think Jesus allowed people to get it on with their camels?

Hey, Jesus didn't condemn incest either.

That means incest is a-okay with Jesus too?

Note: I am not stating a personal judgment, I am stating contextual argument.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Matt 14:28 "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."

Here's one.

Several times you've been shown that "Lord" does not necessarily mean LORD and that other humans are called "Lord". Why do you think every time someone says Kurios that it automatically means LORD? Not even most Trinitarian websites are so hasty to go that far.

Do you not think its, you know, kinda dishonest to try to read something into the text that's either not there or disputable as to its meaning?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Key word: "Innocent".
Who then DID Jesus condemn? Wow, specifically those trying to uphold the Levitical laws.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
NIV
 

McBell

Unbound
Who then DID Jesus condemn? Wow, specifically those trying to uphold the Levitical laws.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
NIV

It was not their "upholding the law" he condemned, but their making themselves exceptions to the law they upheld.

Nice try though.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
If you love your neighbour mainly because Jesus told you to, rather than only because you are a decent person, then you are a Christian.

Case closed.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Who then DID Jesus condemn? Wow, specifically those trying to uphold the Levitical laws.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
NIV


He was condemning the Pharisees who had added false additions and subtractions to the Law and were interpreting it incorrectly and were oppressing the poor and ignoring the parts of the Law that they found inconvenient (like most "Christians"). Your own quote should be quite clear. The same thing happened with the prophets who were sent and killed. Did you read your own quote? He upholds levitical laws quite clearly. I think you just posted without actually knowing what you posted. He calls them out for ignoring the parts of the Law they find inconvenient.

So do you think Jesus was cool with incestors or not?

If you're saying Jesus was condemning people for upholding the LEvitical Law, why were they given the Levitical Law in the first place? Why would God give it to them only to condemn them for following it?

It is such a common misunderstanding for people to think Jesus was condemning the Pharisees for upholding the Law, it's annoying to tell the truth, as if they haven't read a single commentary. I haven't seen any commentaries that actually say Jesus was rebuking them for obeying the Law, not even from anti-Law "Christians". Jesus wouldn't have been Christ if he was anti-Law. Did you forget to read Matthew 5:17-20?

I think another problem is the NIV's questionable (if not dishonest) translation of "Scribes" to "teachers of the Law", I wonder if they are directly intending to make people think it's the Law itself through such a wording rather than the "Teachers" and their opinions.

If Jesus condemned people merely for upholding the Law itself, why were they given the Law? Do you think it was a Demon who gave the Levitical Laws to Moses? Why would Jesus condemn them for following something God gave them? Do you think its possible, from your own quote, that he's saying they were negligent in actually following the fullness of the Law? What do you think "Straining for gnats while swallowing camels" means?

If anything you're coming from a very Gnostic post-Marcion view.
 
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Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
If you love your neighbour mainly because Jesus told you to, rather than only because you are a decent person, then you are a Christian.

Case closed.
Thats cold Alceste. Do you not hold any Christians in high reguard? How do you know when I'm being nice if I am a decent person or just following my religion or maybe even both?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
The dishonest use of the name "Christian"

Did Jesus define as to what a Christian is?

Was Jesus a Christian himself?

I think Jesus was the Christ;he was not a Christian. Jesus and Mary were Jews.
Jesus did not found Christianity; it was Paul who founded the modern Christianity; it has got nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

So, it was Paul who was dishonest to found Christianity to start with, in my opinion.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Did Jesus define as to what a Christian is?

Was Jesus a Christian himself?

I think Jesus was the Christ;he was not a Christian. Jesus and Mary were Jews.
Jesus did not found Christianity; it was Paul who founded the modern Christianity; it has got nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

So, it was Paul who was dishonest to found Christianity to start with, in my opinion.

As much as I completely agree with you about Paul, the thread is about Christians who deny that Jesus was God. Although who am I to say what direction the thread should go.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Did Jesus define as to what a Christian is?

Was Jesus a Christian himself?

I think Jesus was the Christ;he was not a Christian. Jesus and Mary were Jews.
Jesus did not found Christianity; it was Paul who founded the modern Christianity; it has got nothing to do with Jesus' teachings.

So, it was Paul who was dishonest to found Christianity to start with, in my opinion.

I don't think Paul was dishonest. I just think he was human, fallible. His letters however, were considered God's Word. Who's fault is that?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As much as I completely agree with you about Paul, the thread is about Christians who deny that he was God.

But as far as I know from Bible Jesus did not claim to be YHWH; he used the word god for himself in the common use of OT that states that even all Israelites are gods etc..; I don't remember the exact quote right now but there is something like that in the OT.

Is it so ?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I don't think Paul was dishonest. I just think he was human, fallible. His letters however, were considered God's Word. Who's fault is that?

I think it is the fault of those who say that Paul's letters were word of some god; Jesus did not say that.
 

Shermana

Heretic
But as far as I know from Bible Jesus did not claim to be YHWH; he used the word god for himself in the common use of OT that states that even all Israelites are gods etc..; I don't remember the exact quote right now but there is something like that in the OT.

Is it so ?

Exactly, Jesus never said he was God, and it never says the Disciples believed he was God. And they usually never have an answer as to what Jesus meant in John 10:34 when said "Is it not written ye are gods", yes Jesus and David did in fact call us Israelites "gods", so where does that leave the Trinitarian? They usually have to say Jesus was being sarcastic or something, which he clearly wasn't, it was part of his actual argument.

There are interpretation issues such as John 8:58, which I've discussed in countless threads: The name itself is "I shall be", not the commonly misinterpreted (Sinaiticus supported, but early Septuagints disagree) "I am". And when the Jews picked up stones, it was not for calling himself God but for saying he was "a god".

It's all about the translation problems. These "Christians" who try to attack non-Trinitarians are doing so from a VERY dishonest angle of totally avoiding all these interpretation and Theological and grammatical issues, hoping to sideswipe all the holes in their arguments by a sort of anti-intellectualist mob and pitchforks approach.
 

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Several times you've been shown that "Lord" does not necessarily mean LORD and that other humans are called "Lord". Why do you think every time someone says Kurios that it automatically means LORD? Not even most Trinitarian websites are so hasty to go that far.

Do you not think its, you know, kinda dishonest to try to read something into the text that's either not there or disputable as to its meaning?

Your "explanations" are the embodiment of the word "convoluted". It's difficult to even make heads or tails of them.
 
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Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
So do you think Jesus was cool with incestors or not?
Like the legalists of old, you are trying to create a trap.

How is incest a loving act? How does it show mercy? The law that gives freedom is the Law of Love or as James and John called it: the Golden Rule.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Like the legalists of old, you are trying to create a trap.

How is incest a loving act? How does it show mercy? The law that gives freedom is the Law of Love or as James and John called it: the Golden Rule.

If a brother and sister are in love, how is not a loving act?

By qualifying what is and isn't a loving act, are you not being "legalist"? Gotcha.

I don't see anything wrong with legalism. Jesus and Paul and James and Jude and (the author of) Peter and John were all legalists.

It seems that those who don't like the word "Legalism" are espousing....no rules.
 
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