The Divinity of Christ

[Dawnofhope]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

 

[Twilight Hue]

2 Corinthians 4:4 puts a nice spin on things.

It would make the contextual references concerning Christ/godhood all that more interesting since the same allusions are taken differently.

Demigod perhaps?

 

[Dawnofhope]

2 Corinthians 4:4 puts a nice spin on things.

It would make the contextual references concerning Christ/godhood all that more interesting since the same allusions are taken differently.

Demigod perhaps?

Interesting.

Here is the verse in context:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

So Christ is a reflection or image of God, much like the sun reflected in the mirror is an image of the sun. The mirror is not the sun yet perfectly reflects its light.

In this manner the unknowable essence called God could be reflected in the other religious founders.

 

[Daisies4me]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

(quote)

I find it helpful when discussing such ideas, to state chapter and verse, so that each can be read in the context in which it is written, as well as who is speaking, and to whom the statement is made. Helps unravel mysteries somewhat from the start.
Each one can read the passages for themselves, in their own translation of the Holy Scriptures, and then a better discussion can be had.

 

[Dawnofhope]

(quote)

I find it helpful when discussing such ideas, to state chapter and verse, so that each can be read in the context in which it is written, as well as who is speaking, and to whom the statement is made. Helps unravel mysteries somewhat from the start.
Each one can read the passages for themselves, in their own translation of the Holy Scriptures, and then a better discussion can be had.

In that case here is some scripture to get us started:

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6

So Moses is to the Jews what Jesus has become to the Christians. Although the language is different Moses was the salvation for the Hebrew people, both physically and spiritually.

 

[Daisies4me]

2 Corinthians 4:4 puts a nice spin on things.

It would make the contextual references concerning Christ/godhood all that more interesting since the same allusions are taken differently.

Demigod perhaps?

(quote)
Perhaps the scripture has confused some as to the identity of the one called 'the god of this system of things', the one who it is said of that this one is 'blinding the minds' of many. Why does it say the blinding occurs? "so that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through".
Now, please reread the scripture beginning with vs 3:
"if in fact, the good news we declare is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing,
4) among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."

So what is it that the 'god' of the unbelievers (not the God of the Bible, and Father of the Christ) blind the minds of those perishing so that they don't "see" with their eyes of discernment
the 'god', Satan, whom Jesus called 'the god of this world' at John 14:30, and 1 JOhn 5:19 identifies Satan and the 'wicked one" who has power over the world. He is the 'god' who is blinding people to the truth about the identity of Jesus Christ, and to His position in God's Purposes for the earth and for mankind.
Hope this helps to better understand that Bible passage.

 

[Daisies4me]

In that case here is some scripture to get us started:

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6

So Moses is to the Jews what Jesus has become to the Christians. Although the language is different Moses was the salvation for the Hebrew people, both physically and spiritually.

(quote)
Thank you. May I ask which Bible translation you use here?
What do you think of the American Standard Version, or Young's literal translation, or older versions of the KJV? Just a few that I like to compare, however my first preference is the NWT.
Many older translations, although written in 16th century King's English mostly, at times are more accurate. However, some of the modern day language translations are better reading for young people who aren't familiar with many older terms used decade ago. at any rate, if enough translations are compared, the general gist of what is said can be determined. One important issue, imo, is the use of the Divine Name. Many modern translations have removed the Name Jehovah from its rightful place where it appeared a YHWH, or YHVH, in the original manuscripts.

this has led to much confusion as to the identity of the Christ. for example, let's look at Proverbs 8:22-30. This clearly shows Jesus speaking as Wisdom Personified, being God's creation, not Almighty God. He accurately stated that He is 'the beginning of the creation by God'. So when we know who Jesus is, we cannot see Him as being anything other than God's firstborn Son, who became the Christ, who is God's Anointed King designate, and the Head of the Christian Congregation, our Redeemer, who paid the Ransom to God for the Adamic sin of all mankind, once for all time, then ascended into the heavens to 'sit at the right hand of God' until the appointed time, when He is to actively begin His rule as King of God's Kingdom, and the One who leads the charge for the cleansing of the earth as "king of Kings and Lord of Lords', to the Holy War of God, Armageddon. reference revelation 16:14, 16; Rev. 17:1-2, 14.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thank you. May I ask which Bible translation you use here?

Usually the KJV when posting on RF but often the NIV study bible at home as it has easily accessible cross references and background information.

 

[David T]

Interesting.

Here is the verse in context:

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

So Christ is a reflection or image of God, much like the sun reflected in the mirror is an image of the sun. The mirror is not the sun yet perfectly reflects its light.

In this manner the unknowable essence called God could be reflected in the other religious founders.

I actually don't think one could take the new testament seriously if it wasn't reflected in other traditions. If we allow for symbiosis and metamorphosis as being something fundemental to biology, then it has to be seen in human conceptualizations or The very act to think itself. So yes the story is in other traditions it's not literally separate just distinct exactly like the biological tree of life.

 

[oldbadger]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

Where have you been ....?
By the way, another Bahai has joined the forum @shunyadragon.

Ah ha! ...... The Changing Faces of Jesus by Geza Vermes is quite the clearest description about how Jesus changed from being an amazing man into a God.

By the time that G-John is written many of Jesus's healings have been sidelined or ignored because actions like demon-casting etc are no longer considered as suitable anecdotes for a God...... and raising certainly dead bodies back to life 'more suitable'.

And as you say, the titles expand from Son-of-man (much as Kentish folks here might use 'this bloke here is going to see Wales -v- France at Twickers') to Son-of-God (all Jews were children of God) on to Lord, on to Meshiah, on to Christ etc etc.... to..... GOD!

I must say that I do like the diplomatic and honest way in which Bahauallah delicately describes Jesus. The way I read it, he gently places Jesus amongst the Prophets without causing the slightest ripple upon the Christian waters. Now you just watch the replies to that

 

[wizanda]

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

My own method, and Dr Margaret Barker says similar currently based on the more ancient texts....

Yehoshua Elohim (Lord that Saves) is a manifestation from Yah-Avah Elohim (Lord To Be); he is the physical flesh of David, as it states David shall be the Messiah in multiple places, yet the Spirit of the Lord is upon him.

There are a council of Elohim/Elders/Arch Angels/Avatars surrounding the one ultimate creator (EL) who sits in the core of reality.

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

According to the Psalms 82:6 we're all Elohim as well, Elohim means angels as it is plural; the God Most High (El Elyon) isn't ever plural, and doesn't ever appear in physical form.

So recognizing we're all fallen angels to me is applicable to all religions, as people are very confused about where we are within reality, without even real understanding of what happens in Heaven.

As for you still using the false text to make a theological case, find it a confusing methodology of making sense, to use faulty foundations to begin with.

 

[omega2xx]

We have contradictory statements in the Gospels about the reality of Christ. For example:

- Jesus is God

- Jesus is the 'Son of God'

- Jesus is the 'son of man'.

What is the best way of understanding the spiritual reality of Christ?

Could these principles be applicable to other faiths?

Both are true if you accept that what is said of Him is dependent on if is about His incarnation. The doctrine of the The Trinity says He is God. The doctrine of His incarnation is that while on earth, He did not have all of the attributes of God, making Him the son of man, the title He gave himself while on earth.

We also need to accept 2 Biblical principles---With God nothing is impossible and some Biblical doctrines are beyond man's perfect understanding. Christians do not have to perfectly understand every principle of "God,
We just have to believe them.

 

[Daisies4me]

In that case here is some scripture to get us started:

Is Jesus God incarnate?

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So in this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6

So Moses is to the Jews what Jesus has become to the Christians. Although the language is different Moses was the salvation for the Hebrew people, both physically and spiritually.

(quote)
I am in agreement with you in that the Bible does not teach that Jesus is God Almighty, but is the Son of God. Jesus is our Mediator between sinful humans and God Almighty. ( Moses was mediator between Jehovah God and the Israelites, (descendants of Jacob, not a literal land called Israel)).

Yes, Both Moses and Jesus were considered to be Messiahs, used by Jehovah God to deliver His people. But Jesus is the Only-Begotten Son of God, the first-born of all creation by God, created in God's Image, and the One who was speaking as Wisdom Personified at Proverbs 8:22-30. I feel that we are in agreement there.

What I was more interested in finding, was the scripture that says 'Jesus is God', that you referenced in your post. I have failed to see that one in the Bible, so if you have chapter and verse for that one, please share.
thanks

 

[Daisies4me]

Both are true if you accept that what is said of Him is dependent on if is about His incarnation. The doctrine of the The Trinity says He is God. The doctrine of His incarnation is that while on earth, He did not have all of the attributes of God, making Him the son of man, the title He gave himself while on earth.

We also need to accept 2 Biblical principles---With God nothing is impossible and some Biblical doctrines are beyond man's perfect understanding. Christians do not have to perfectly understand every principle of "God,
We just have to believe them.

(quote)
The trinity doctrine is not Biblical, it was written by men. Nor is the teaching of a triune godhead found there, but a plethora of scriptures refute it, in fact.
The Bible is a product of God's Holy Spirit, as God Inspired men to write His Words down for mankind. It is also by God's Holy Spirit that anyone can begin to understand what is written.
Do you recall what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well? John 4:22-26

So there would be some who would 'get the sense of it', while others do not. Regardless of whom a group ~PROFESSES~ to worship, if they hold to doctrines of men instead of the Inspired Word of God, their worship is in vain, and they will not 'get the sense of it'. reference Mark 7:6-7 where Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Pharisees and scribes. Do you think that the "light" of truth would be shined down on those ones? hardly. There is true religion and there is false religion, when measuring it by what the Bible really teaches, I have found.
what do you think?

 

[Daisies4me]

Usually the KJV when posting on RF but often the NIV study bible at home as it has easily accessible cross references and background information.

(quote)
I also have a KJV, that I have owned for 40 years. How does yours read at Psalms 83:18?

 

[Daisies4me]

Where have you been ....?
By the way, another Bahai has joined the forum @shunyadragon.

Ah ha! ...... The Changing Faces of Jesus by Geza Vermes is quite the clearest description about how Jesus changed from being an amazing man into a God.

By the time that G-John is written many of Jesus's healings have been sidelined or ignored because actions like demon-casting etc are no longer considered as suitable anecdotes for a God...... and raising certainly dead bodies back to life 'more suitable'.

And as you say, the titles expand from Son-of-man (much as Kentish folks here might use 'this bloke here is going to see Wales -v- France at Twickers') to Son-of-God (all Jews were children of God) on to Lord, on to Meshiah, on to Christ etc etc.... to..... GOD!

I must say that I do like the diplomatic and honest way in which Bahauallah delicately describes Jesus. The way I read it, he gently places Jesus amongst the Prophets without causing the slightest ripple upon the Christian waters. Now you just watch the replies to that

(quote)
Jesus was a Prophet. No argument there,

 

[Daisies4me]

My own method, and Dr Margaret Barker says similar currently based on the more ancient texts....

Yehoshua Elohim (Lord that Saves) is a manifestation from Yah-Avah Elohim (Lord To Be); he is the physical flesh of David, as it states David shall be the Messiah in multiple places, yet the Spirit of the Lord is upon him.

There are a council of Elohim/Elders/Arch Angels/Avatars surrounding the one ultimate creator (EL) who sits in the core of reality.

According to the Psalms 82:6 we're all Elohim as well, Elohim means angels as it is plural; the God Most High (El Elyon) isn't ever plural, and doesn't ever appear in physical form.

So recognizing we're all fallen angels to me is applicable to all religions, as people are very confused about where we are within reality, without even real understanding of what happens in Heaven.

As for you still using the false text to make a theological case, find it a confusing methodology of making sense, to use faulty foundations to begin with.

(quote)
"fallen angels" are demons who forsook their proper dwelling place in the heavens, and materialized in human bodies, so as to have sexual relations with the daughters of men. when the Nephilim ,the vicious giant hybrid offspring of the demon angels and humans became a threat to all of the inhabitants of the earth, God brought forth the flood. The nephilim were destroyed, but the demon angels just dropped the materialized human bodies and went back up into the spirit realm, and are still alive today, and are angrily misleading as many as they can, knowing that their time is short.
no humans created from the earth were ever in heaven as angels prior to being born on earth, with the exception of Jesus, who had a prehuman existence in the heavens with God, as the firstborn of all creation by God. He alone had his life force transferred by God into the womb of a virgin girl to be born in human form upon the earth, so as to be a valid potential Ransomer for sinful humankind. No other human was ever an angel in heaven. Angels were created long before the earth and humans existed, and were not a product of a reproduction. they were created individually, and have no sexual, or gender differences among them. They do not procreate as humans do.
So any 'fallen angels' are actually demons angels who chose to follow Satan, and in the war in the heavens, were 'cast out' along with Satan, when Jesus cleansed the heavens of satanic influence, see Rev. 12:7-12. This has already taken place, a century ago. at the end of the 'gentile times'.

 

[omega2xx]

(quote)
The trinity doctrine is not Biblical, it was written by men. Nor is the teaching of a triune godhead found there, but a plethora of scriptures refute it, in fact.<<

The trinity is in the Bible for those who understand Scripture. There are no verses that refute it.

The Bible is a product of God's Holy Spirit, as God Inspired men to write His Words down for mankind. It is also by God's Holy Spirit that anyone can begin to understand what is written.

Agreed.

Do you recall what Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well? John 4:22-26

So there would be some who would 'get the sense of it', while others do not. Regardless of whom a group ~PROFESSES~ to worship, if they hold to doctrines of men instead of the Inspired Word of God, their worship is in vain, and they will not 'get the sense of it'. reference Mark 7:6-7 where Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Pharisees and scribes. Do you think that the "light" of truth would be shined down on those ones? hardly. There is true religion and there is false religion, when measuring it by what the Bible really teaches, I have found.
what do you think?

While what you say is basically true, it does not reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

The first word for deity in the Bible is "Elohim." Elohim is a singular noun with a plural ending. It is impossible for God to makes such a mistake.

Then Genesis 1:26 uses "US" and "OUR" and that can't refer to angels who have no creative powers and they were not made in God's image and likeness.

 

[Daisies4me]

quote:While what you say is basically true, it does not reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

The first word for deity in the Bible is "Elohim." Elohim is a singular noun with a plural ending. It is impossible for God to makes such a mistake.

Then Genesis 1:26 uses "US" and "OUR" and that can't refer to angels who have no creative powers and they were not made in God's image and likeness.
(quote)
If you would, please show chapter and verse where "trinity" can be found in the Bible. I think that probably you have the Athenasian Creed, which did not originate from the Scriptures, but is written by uninspired men. This unscriptural teaching became popular around the 4th century. Among the Apostolic 'Fathers', there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective, according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia vol. XIV, p. 209. (1967)

Please consider: Does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?
Let's check the Scriptures for an answer. Matthew 26:39, for example shows that if the father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless, eh? Jesus would never have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father's will. Don't you think?
Or, John 8:17-18, where Jesus answered the Pharisees and spoke definitely of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father. could we agree on this ?

 

[Daisies4me]

quote:While what you say is basically true, it does not reject the doctrine of the Trinity.

The first word for deity in the Bible is "Elohim." Elohim is a singular noun with a plural ending. It is impossible for God to makes such a mistake.

Then Genesis 1:26 uses "US" and "OUR" and that can't refer to angels who have no creative powers and they were not made in God's image and likeness.
(quote)
If you would, please show chapter and verse where "trinity" can be found in the Bible. I think that probably you have the Athenasian Creed, which did not originate from the Scriptures, but is written by uninspired men. This unscriptural teaching became popular around the 4th century. Among the Apostolic 'Fathers', there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective, according to the New Catholic Encyclopedia vol. XIV, p. 209. (1967)

Please consider: Does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?
Let's check the Scriptures for an answer. Matthew 26:39, for example shows that if the father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless, eh? Jesus would never have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father's will. Don't you think?
Or, John 8:17-18, where Jesus answered the Pharisees and spoke definitely of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father. could we agree on this ?
Genesis 1:26 corresponds to Proverbs chapter 8, have you read that account? Jesus was created before anything else, by God. He was God's "Master Worker" in the creation of everything else. So, it was to Jesus that Jehovah God spoke, when he said 'Let us..."