The Emerging World Religion

[Yoshua]

Because Judaism (and its attendant religious ideas) forms the basis for Christianity. Therefore, for Jesus to have effected resurrection, he would have to be God.

Hi Sojourner,

I don’t see your point on this about resurrection which is related to Judaism. The resurrection is the plan of God despite of the unbelief with the Jews. If they did not accept the resurrection, what it has to do with Christ’s resurrection? I think it is a matter of believing the resurrection of Christ or not.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

You're (again) asking the wrong questions. You're unlikely to get an answer to a wrong question.

What is my wrong question? Can you make it right for me so I can see your point of view?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

"World" isn't a literal reference. It's metaphoric.

Ok. It is metaphoric, now what would be your meaning of the “world” as stated in the Scriptures?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

You asked the question, "How do you know the living Spirit of God as the Truth? What is your basis?". To which I answered the heart and the soul are. I really don't get what this question in response is getting at. I'm not sure how "dictates a deity to be worshiped" relates to this. You asked how I know that something I experience is Truth. The answer is it is known through your heart and soul. It's just something you know.

I’m saying that my basis is the Word of God, the Bible. How about you? Is it anything that you believe by heart brought you to certainty that it is the Spirit of God?

Thanks

 

[sojourner]

What is my wrong question? Can you make it right for me so I can see your point of view?

Thanks

Take your pick. They're all wrong. You just don't get it; you've managed to fabricate something that is incongruent with what you say you believe, and I can't help you with that.

 

[sojourner]

Ok. It is metaphoric, now what would be your meaning of the “world” as stated in the Scriptures?

Thanks

Which time? Because the term is used many times by several authors. Each of them means something different by the term, but you seem to want to mush them all together under one umbrella of meaning, that being the meaning you have decided to give them.

 

[sojourner]

I’m saying that my basis is the Word of God, the Bible. How about you? Is it anything that you believe by heart brought you to certainty that it is the Spirit of God?

Thanks

Your basis isn't "the Word of God." Your basis is your understanding of "the Word of God." In other words, your basis is "the Word of Yoshua."

 

[Windwalker]

That is what the common thinking of the acceptance of truth by the emerging movement. Imagine, you're saying that the Bible expresses Truth, but in relative term, and by those interpretation, how we understand things becomes the truth. If that would be the case, man can have their own truth based on their perspective. None of the perspective is coming from God because no authority or direct from God.

No understanding of God exists outside the person understanding that. God is understood through the limits of human understandings.

Therefore, your claim of the Spirit of truth cannot be the Spirit of truth that came from God because of the relative concept.

All relative truths come from Truth itself. No relative truth should be understood as Truth itself.

It is like a person can say “I think Jesus is not the way, the truth and the life” because that is my interpretation--as my context and perspective. Everyone may have their own interpretation. Is that kind of interpretation that you are implying?

Everyone does have a relative understanding, even those like you who mistake their own relative understanding as absolute truth.

Making truth as relative means with the following:
1. There is no authority of God’s word.

There is no absolute authority in anyone's interpretation of anything, including scripture.

2. Everybody can make his own interpretation as their truth.

They already do, especially you.

3. The confession of Jesus Christ in John 14:6 can be changed.

Yes, and you already have changed it.

4. Man is the authority rather than God because of his expression to truth is relative.

You are so close to what you are doing all the time, it could burn your fingers if you came closer. You are making yourself the authority rather than God, expressing your relative truth as absolute.

5. Man is above God, since he does not acknowledge that there is authority or direct from God.

It doesn't follow at all. Although, what you are doing is in fact placing yourself above God.

6. The Bible is not to be followed as the Word of God because of non-authority. Other religious writings is also the word of God.

The Bible may be used for guidance, wisdom, and inspiration. It may not be used to send people to hell who don't agree with your beliefs. Other religions also have inspiration, guidance, and wisdom within them.

I can’t imagine how Christ’s disciples argue with Jesus telling Him that they have their own truth. It’s kind of something not logical anymore.

Let's put it this way, Jesus wanted them to find the truth for themselves. Not blindly follow his words and not discover for themselves what he wanted, what he hoped for them to find. A good teacher wants his students to surpass even them. A dictator wants everyone underneath them. Which do think Jesus was?

 

[Windwalker]

Hmm. This is another one. The Word of God is in everything, and not solely the Bible. Since there is no absolute truth, there is no wonder why there would be an access of a united religion that would downgrade and trash the gospel of Christ.

Unlike you I believe Unity elevates the Gospel to what is supposed to be. Again, you're never going to have a "united religion". You'll no more have a single religion than you will a single human. But you can have a unitive heart, rather than a warring and divisive one which you promote in your trashing of the gospel.

Therefore, when Jesus said, “deny yourself carry your own cross and follow me” is arrogance?

If you are following a wise teacher, or the teacher tells you to follow him as his student, that's not arrogant. That has nothing to do with being absolutist in their claims.

Why must everything be one thing or the other for you, black or white, absolute truth or absolute lie? Does the volume on your stereo have only two volume settings too, either completely silent or full volume blaring? I think it must.

Then, if that is the case of truth as no absolute truth, it’s the same understanding of relative truth. It does not change anything. If I say there God, it is not 100% truth, man created by God, still not 100% truth. Therefore, there is a doubt in all truths even for God who is above our knowledge.

Yes! There should be. You should always doubt yourself because it's the ONLY way you grow! There is this wonderful saying that captures this perfectly. "Great doubt, great enlightenment; small doubt, small enlightenment". If you "know what you know!", and you stand in that cock-sure of yourself and defiant of any challenges to your beliefs, you will be only as good as your best idea and never grow any further. This is this inherent and lethal flaw in your horribly mistaken idea that you are believing Absolute truth when you read from the Bible. You believe you are Absolutely Right! That is why you will remain stuck where you are and become arrogant in your assumptions of your being right. This does not serve Truth itself. It is the exact opposite of that.

This is why I used the Scriptures as the support to my point of view, and it is not that easy to tell them that it is the evidence if the one you’re talking to does not believe the Scripture--as the Word of God.

Even if I did, I'd still say your reading of it is subjective and should not be taken by you as an Absolute because of that. You think it's because I don't accept the Bible as Absolute I don't agree with you? No, I don't agree with you because you are extremely limited in your experience and understanding and arrogant in assuming everyone else is wrong because they don't agree with you. That's why.

This is how important in having a basis. Denying the basis like the Bible can be still prove by fact, but sometimes by logic itself.

Matt.7:15-21
15. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?
17. "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20. "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.

This is why I reject you as a false teacher.

 

[Windwalker]

If there are false teachings, therefore you will know them as bad fruit. Then, how will you know if their teachings are false?

Where does it say "false teachings" are bad fruit anywhere in the Bible? You are completely supplying that out of your ideas of what you wish it taught, but doesn't. Nowhere does the Bible equate fruits of the spirit with correct doctrines.

Bible: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."

You:"The fruit of the Spirit is believing in correct Biblical teachings. Therefore those that don't teach what I believe are false prophets. If they are producing the fruits of the Spirit the bible lists, they are not true fruits but fake fruits, fake love, fake goodness, fake self-control, fake peace, etc, given to them by the Dark Lord Satan who fakes God all the time".
​

Here's the thing, the false prophet is the one who uses all the right words, quotes from the Bible, but does not understand from the heart and leads others astray that if they follow this way, believe this teaching or that teaching, do this practice here or there, and so forth, that they will be saved. They sound right when they describe the hamburger on the menu to their customers, but when you check what you are eating it turns out to be a plastic hamburger instead. Those are the false prophets.

There's no nutritional value to what they teach. They are all about the right descriptions, but are unable to produce actual fruit as the Bible explains fruit is (not as you explain it), because they have no inner source of understanding. The false prophet is those who pose as Christians, preach to others to believe and trust the words of the book they are holding up in their hands, but they have no substance. Where's the beef? An evil tree cannot produce good fruit. You shall know them by their fruits, not by their doctrines, not by their beliefs, not by their teachings, but by the truth of their lives.

With this example, how can you conclude to say that “we interpret those relative truths in our own relative contexts” if in the first place, the phrase is (obviously) taken out of context??

You don't understand anything about what you are trying to criticize here.

 

[Yoshua]

Take your pick. They're all wrong. You just don't get it; you've managed to fabricate something that is incongruent with what you say you believe, and I can't help you with that.

Hi Sojourner,

Therefore, you can’t explain it to me. You are just telling me that I’m wrong without basis. I think this is the problem if the basis is just only by one’s own opinion instead of Scripture.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Which time? Because the term is used many times by several authors. Each of them means something different by the term, but you seem to want to mush them all together under one umbrella of meaning, that being the meaning you have decided to give them.

This one at John 17:14-16. How could you explain the different meaning of the “world” uttered by Jesus in time??

John 17:14-16
14. "I have given them Thy word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. ( the world hated His word )
15. "I do not ask Thee to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16. "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Your basis isn't "the Word of God." Your basis is your understanding of "the Word of God." In other words, your basis is "the Word of Yoshua."

It is not. This is why I would like to discuss it with you and lay down the Scriptures if those are my words and understanding.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Everyone does have a relative understanding, even those like you who mistake their own relative understanding as absolute truth.

Hi Windwalker,

What if you have a headache, could you take any medicine? Did 1+1=2? Or you think there are a variety of answers as the right answer??

There is no absolute authority in anyone's interpretation of anything, including scripture.

No, I mean the word of God in the Bible as the existing Word of God. Making truth as relative would also mean that there is no God’s word as the authority. Thus, denying He is the authority.

They already do, especially you.

Then that would come out that there is still a truth.

Yes, and you already have changed it.

Easy to say. Let’s focus John 14:6 in the other thread.

You are so close to what you are doing all the time, it could burn your fingers if you came closer. You are making yourself the authority rather than God, expressing your relative truth as absolute.

Not my absolute truth. Originally, I don’t have a truth on “self” and authority. God’s word has the authority and not me. I just have faith in His word and trusted His promises. Therefore, if God’s word has authority, what I’m uttering is His word as my basis. It is not me, it’s Him.

It doesn't follow at all. Although, what you are doing is in fact placing yourself above God.

If I’m placing myself above God, I don’t quote “submission and obedience” to God repeatedly on this thread.

The Bible may be used for guidance, wisdom, and inspiration. It may not be used to send people to hell who don't agree with your beliefs. Other religions also have inspiration, guidance, and wisdom within them.

Did God want to send people to hell? Simply John 3:16, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. The word “believe” here is entrust, and not just believing just by mind.

John 3:17-18
17. "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
36. "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''

Let's put it this way, Jesus wanted them to find the truth for themselves. Not blindly follow his words and not discover for themselves what he wanted, what he hoped for them to find. A good teacher wants his students to surpass even them. A dictator wants everyone underneath them. Which do think Jesus was?

That is obviously the effect of a believer in relative truth perspective. Your answer is not consistent with the passage in John 14. This is contradicted with the claim of Jesus Christ that He is the way, the truth and the life.

Why do the disciples need to find the truth for themselves?
1. Jesus already said that He is the way, the truth and the life.
2. The disciples were chosen to be His follower and not as partners in the ministry.
3. The chapter of John 14:6 is about keeping His commandment/words, and knowing Him. It is not about finding the truth for themselves.
4. The teaching of Christ is not about surpassing Him. No way of that concept of surpassing a teacher.

John 14:6-11
6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.''
8. Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.''
9. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
10. "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11. "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Unlike you I believe Unity elevates the Gospel to what is supposed to be. Again, you're never going to have a "united religion". You'll no more have a single religion than you will a single human. But you can have a unitive heart, rather than a warring and divisive one which you promote in your trashing of the gospel.

1 Cor. 12:12-13
12. For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

There is only one body and one Spirit, that is in Christ.

If you are following a wise teacher, or the teacher tells you to follow him as his student, that's not arrogant. That has nothing to do with being absolutist in their claims.

That is true. I’m just following what Jesus had said “Follow Me”.

Why must everything be one thing or the other for you, black or white, absolute truth or absolute lie? Does the volume on your stereo have only two volume settings too, either completely silent or full volume blaring? I think it must.

There are many volumes to choose for the stereo, but there is a volume that is right with our ear for hearing (decibel). Same as the light (lux/lumens). Same as the cure for a cancer patient, there are a lot of medicine to choose but there is one that is right medicine to cure his disease.

es! There should be. You should always doubt yourself because it's the ONLY way you grow! There is this wonderful saying that captures this perfectly. "Great doubt, great enlightenment; small doubt, small enlightenment". If you "know what you know!", and you stand in that cock-sure of yourself and defiant of any challenges to your beliefs, you will be only as good as your best idea and never grow any further. This is this inherent and lethal flaw in your horribly mistaken idea that you are believing Absolute truth when you read from the Bible. You believe you are Absolutely Right! That is why you will remain stuck where you are and become arrogant in your assumptions of your being right. This does not serve Truth itself. It is the exact opposite of that.

I don’t doubt because I have my guide. I’m not absolutely right. What makes me in the “absolute right” is the Scripture. This is the reason why we need the Scripture, for instruction, correction, guidance, wisdom and inspiration, just as you said before. Doubt permeates, if there is no basis or reference about what is truth. No absolute truth is doubt. Having an absolute truth is spiritual growth.

This is why I reject you as a false teacher.

Don’t make me your teacher, make Jesus Christ as your teacher because I’m only dependent on Him.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Where does it say "false teachings" are bad fruit anywhere in the Bible? You are completely supplying that out of your ideas of what you wish it taught, but doesn't. Nowhere does the Bible equate fruits of the spirit with correct doctrines.

Bible: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."

You:"The fruit of the Spirit is believing in correct Biblical teachings. Therefore those that don't teach what I believe are false prophets. If they are producing the fruits of the Spirit the bible lists, they are not true fruits but fake fruits, fake love, fake goodness, fake self-control, fake peace, etc, given to them by the Dark Lord Satan who fakes God all the time".

Windwalker,

The Bible clearly mentioned about false teachings. To be able to determine that false teachings are bad fruit is to know what the Spirit is, and what He does. The Spirit is the Holy Spirit, this produced fruits as you mentioned above.

If false teachings are not bad fruits, then why Jesus warned about false teachings? The Holy Spirit is the promised Holy Spirit that was given by Jesus Christ. The fruit of the Spirit is not from our nature but what the Spirit of God produced.

John 14:15-17
15. "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16. "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever,
17. "even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Therefore, the Spirit of truth is not received by the world. If false teachings is not bad fruit, the statement should say that the world can receive instead of the world cannot receive.

John 16:12-15
12. "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13. "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14. "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15. "All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

The Spirit of truth sourced from God. If false teachings is not a bad fruit, the statement should not say He will guide us into all truth. That would mean there must be a truth that glorifies God.

1 John 4:1-3
1. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
3. and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

There are spirits that are not from God.

Here's the thing, the false prophet is the one who uses all the right words, quotes from the Bible, but does not understand from the heart and leads others astray that if they follow this way, believe this teaching or that teaching, do this practice here or there, and so forth, that they will be saved. They sound right when they describe the hamburger on the menu to their customers, but when you check what you are eating it turns out to be a plastic hamburger instead. Those are the false prophets.

There's no nutritional value to what they teach. They are all about the right descriptions, but are unable to produce actual fruit as the Bible explains fruit is (not as you explain it), because they have no inner source of understanding. The false prophet is those who pose as Christians, preach to others to believe and trust the words of the book they are holding up in their hands, but they have no substance. Where's the beef? An evil tree cannot produce good fruit. You shall know them by their fruits, not by their doctrines, not by their beliefs, not by their teachings, but by the truth of their lives.

Yes, that is true an evil tree cannot produce good fruit. Therefore, there are evil tree that camouflaged as producing good fruit, and those are the false teachers/teachings.

2 Peter 2:1-2
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.

False teachers deny the Lord and bring destructive heresies about Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:7-9
7. For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9. Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

There is a doctrine of Christ, therefore we may know what is not the doctrine of Christ.

Gal. 1:8-9
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

We may know the “other gospel” by knowing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It can’t be finding the truth because the truth has been declared by Jesus Christ.

Thanks

 

[Windwalker]

What if you have a headache, could you take any medicine? Did 1+1=2? Or you think there are a variety of answers as the right answer??

So you think God is a math formula?

 

[Windwalker]

No, I mean the word of God in the Bible as the existing Word of God. Making truth as relative would also mean that there is no God’s word as the authority. Thus, denying He is the authority.

It doesn't matter if the Bible is 1,000,000,000% perfect, Absolute and Authoritative. The second any human reads it, it becomes a relative truth dependent on the context of the person reading it. No human interpretation is absolute. And the Bible is nothing without the human interpreting it. It is irrelevant to us if we don't interpret it. It does not exist to us without our human minds interpreting it. All understanding is relative and non-absolute. The "word of God" as pure and absolute does not exist in any human understanding. Especially yours.

 

[Windwalker]

I just have faith in His word

You have faith in your interpretation of the Bible. You have faith in your beliefs. This is not at all the same as faith in God.

Therefore, if God’s word has authority, what I’m uttering is His word as my basis. It is not me, it’s Him.

B.S. It is you. It is not God. To say otherwise is delusional thought.

If I’m placing myself above God, I don’t quote “submission and obedience” to God repeatedly on this thread.

You are placing yourself above God because you take your ideas about God, and make them God, then expect everyone else to obey and submit to your limp ideas about the divine. This is the height of human arrogance.

 

[Windwalker]

1 Cor. 12:12-13
12. For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

There is only one body and one Spirit, that is in Christ.

That's right. This is the unitive heart. It doesn't matter if you're Jew or Greek, Christian or Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. All drink that one Spirit.

That is true. I’m just following what Jesus had said “Follow Me”.

Then why are you arrogantly acting as judge over your brothers? That doesn't sound very much like someone following Jesus.

There are many volumes to choose for the stereo, but there is a volume that is right with our ear for hearing (decibel).

That's not true at all. There is a wide range of volumes that are appropriate to our hearing. My point was, your stereo is a black and white, all or nothing stereo whose only volume is full volume. There are no in between settings for you, only off, or full volume on.

Same as the light (lux/lumens). Same as the cure for a cancer patient, there are a lot of medicine to choose but there is one that is right medicine to cure his disease.

False. There are many options to heal, and not only one right one. You are wrong. Again.

I don’t doubt because I have my guide. I’m not absolutely right. What makes me in the “absolute right” is the Scripture.

What makes you absolutely wrong is your arrogant belief that your understanding is absolutely right.

This is the reason why we need the Scripture, for instruction, correction, guidance, wisdom and inspiration, just as you said before.

It doesn't matter if you have it, because you arrogantly assume you know the truth and are not open to instruction, correction, guidance, wisdom, or especially inspiration. I don't think that word has any meaning to you.

Doubt permeates, if there is no basis or reference about what is truth. No absolute truth is doubt. Having an absolute truth is spiritual growth.

Utter garbage. Utter ignorance. Utter arrogance.