The end, and other matters.

[Pegg]

Everyone views such things differently.
Religous people have a different mind set compaired to an athiest.
Like I said its different here. they tried to cover it so many times it just got tiring.

i always try to remember that we are all prone to errors...even the elders...none of them are always going to be right. Take things with a grain of salt and when someone tells you something that doesnt seem right, question it...even if its an elder who tells you. Ask to see where he got the information from and get a few opinions on it before you make a conclusion.

You may find that the person who told you has taken something out of context or has misread the article...or perhaps they heard it from brother smith who was told by his sisters cousin who heard it some years ago at a meeting if you know what i mean.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

wrong pegg. the 144000 are turned into one entity which will be jesus' wife. They will rule together as 2.
Spirit is the concious BODY. so when the body dies spirit goes too. thats just the belief.

 

[Pegg]

James2:26
26 ... the body without the spirit is dead...

A spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have, Luke 24:39.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16.

Glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, 1 Cor. 6:20.

This body is the body of my spirit, Ether 3:16.

that's right, JW's don't believe in a spirit (why not exactly?) ok - sorry, I see this is in a JW dir, so I better not post any more about body + spirit = living soul

We certainly do believe in a spirit... we just believe that it is what the original word says it is.

Spirit in greek comes from the word 'pneu′ma' and means “breathe or blow or wind” and in hebrew its Ru′ach

Spirit is our lifeforce according to the meaning of the word...its what we have when we have life. If we die, our spirit is said to go out...much like a candle that goes out when the flame dies.

 

[idea]

it appears that they are not saying they are 'prophets' but rather they are doing the work that the prophets of old did by informing people of Gods word.

we don't put "prophet" in quotes
Prophets

sorry, could not help myself. I do like the JW's because they have seen through the trinity lies only 144,000 make it though? (and there are already 144,000 - they have a list with the names of everyone who is going to the highest heaven, so tuff luck, heaven is already full) o well...

 

[Pegg]

wrong pegg. the 144000 are turned into one entity which will be jesus' wife. They will rule together as 2.
Spirit is the concious BODY. so when the body dies spirit goes too. thats just the belief.

i agree that they are said to become 'one in union with christ'
and make up his bride...but there are still 144,000 of them.
Jesus is said to be in union with his father, but they are still 2 separate beings. The annointed are still separate individuals too, they each are given a throne on which to serve as priests with Christ.

The 'soul' is the living body. Soul comes from the hebrew word Nephesh and its what Adam was said to become when he came to life.
The breath is the spirit...its the lifeforce within a person.
They go hand in hand together... a living person is a soul and has spirit OR we could say, a living person has both body (soul) and breath (spirit)

 

[idea]

Spirit is our lifeforce according to the meaning of the word...its what we have when we have life.

I agree with that



Evil spirits: Jesus cast out many devils, Mark 1:27, 34, 39.
Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit, Mark 5:2–13.

spirits are an actual entity - our spirits, and evil spirits. When Jesus cast the spirits out, they did not just blink out like a candle - they went and possessed the bodies of a bunch of pigs instead...

(New Testament | Matthew 8:32)
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

our spirit does not cease to exist after we die.... our spirit existed before we were born, and will continue to exist after we die.

 

[Pegg]

we don't put "prophet" in quotes
Prophets

sorry, could not help myself. I do like the JW's because they have seen through the trinity lies only 144,000 make it though? (and there are already 144,000 - they have a list with the names of everyone who is going to the highest heaven, so tuff luck, heaven is already full) o well...

lol thats alright.

The thing about the 144,000 is that they are serving a unique purpose. That purpose is to help mankind return to perfection so that we can all be united with God as Adam and Eve once were.

We are human and we were created to live on earth, not in heaven. Our purpose has not changed in that regard so its only natural that God is not going to put everyone in heaven. I certainly dont want to go to heaven...i love the earth and i want to live here forever...So does God and he certainly is not going to let this beautiful planet turn into a wasteland. We were made to be caretakers and he still wants us to be caretakers.

those who are chosen to go to heaven have been given that prospect in order for Gods will to be accomplished here on earth and so that we can fulfill our purpose.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

You arent grasping the beliefes. Earth will be where the rest go, the ones that arent the 144,000

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

There is also something I'd like to bring up.
When raised as a JW, in my searches and as a person myself, it makes for a depressive outlook, and generally creates depression.

Not too long ago there were 2 children, brother and sister, raised in this religon strictly and they were so afraid of the war that they ran off into the woods and shot each other, so that they wouldnt have to view it.

When your rasied in this religion, from childhood (since your a baby i mean) it is a depressing thing. Especially if you go to school. Because they teach you if your friends dont believein god, one they arent your true friends, and 2 if you make it through the end of things, they will be killed while you live on. That kind of weight can be dangerous. And not to mention the fears of what will happen to you if you dont make it.
There is a childrens book and it explains this in a way a child should never have something explained to them. Suffering in death of the war is promised, so if you've messed up some where along the line your going to suffer, and as a child this is a scary prospect. It isnt the 'monster in my closet, monster under my bed" its the suffering before a horrible death and to never see your friends if you make it. You dont win.

Even as a kid your already isolated because people think your weird for not saluting the flag, say in US anyways. Your instantly weird. When you step out of the room for holiday parties, and ect.
Its a very sad thing, and results in a tragic death of the two kids or the depression of a teen/adult.

What do you think?

 

[Wandered Off]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * STAFF ADVISORY * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Thread moved to an area where debate is permitted.​

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

i started studying, reluctantly i might add, in 1996 at the age of 42. Baptized in 1998.

In 1997, when i was working in construction, satan sent to me a plumber who did everything in his power to get to flee from the congregation with accusations and lies that were way beyond the realm of what i have ever faced on any forum. All that did was strengthen my resolve to become stronger spiritually.
If you notice on my avatar, it says "exiled from the hoc" yes, i was banned for fielding attacks similar to what you two kids attempted tonight. Unfortunately the harshest attacks came from so called "christians" one was the moderator who had the power of life and death at her finger tips.
Specifically, i was banned for using the term "web sites of lies and hate".

You see, some people are more than happy to dish it out, but can't take it when they are proven wrong or fraudulent.

But i must apologize because i did set you up, because i knew what the watchtower said about 1975, and i had an article ready that you will never see on the web sites of lies and hate which basically in more detail say the same things that your article said.
Behold;


the

year 1975​

at the baltimore assembly brother franz in his closing remarks made some interesting comments regarding the year 1975. He began casually by saying, “just before i got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘say, what does this 1975 mean? Does it mean this, that or any other thing?’” in part, brother franz went on to say: ‘you have noticed the chart [on pages 31-35 in the book life everlasting—in freedom of the sons of god]. It shows that 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that god’s rest day began 4026 b.c.e.? it could have. The life everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it. If that is the case, what does that mean to us? [he went into some length showing the feasibility of the 4026 b.c.e. Date as being the beginning of god’s rest day.]​

‘what about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked brother franz. ‘does it mean that armageddon is going to be finished, with satan bound, by 1975? it could! It could! all things are possible with god. Does it mean that babylon the great is going to go down by 1975? it could! does it mean that the attack of gog of magog is going to be made on jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then gog himself will be put out of action? it could, but we are not saying all things are possible with god. But we are not saying. and don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.​

the above article comes from the nov. 15, 1966 watchtower.​

nowhere does it say anything other than "maybe" will the end come tomorrow?? it could! It could! nothing for certain as the liars would want you to believe.​

as you can see, 9 years before the fact, this warning was put out there not to start any rumors. But the rumors started anyway, and whose fault was it that they were believed? The people who fell for it!​

they should have been paying attention.​

the web sites of lies and hate are quite skillful in the way they present their deceptions. They are designed to confuse, confound, and outrage the ignorant.​

so be careful, dump jon (if he really is your boyfriend) and get back to meeting. This atheism crap is too unbecoming.​

do tell me why you think i should dump him?

What is your reason for thinking so?

There we go

 

[Pegg]

You arent grasping the beliefes. Earth will be where the rest go, the ones that arent the 144,000

im not sure what you mean by that.

Can you tell me what problem you see with only a small number going to heaven?

 

[Pegg]

There is also something I'd like to bring up.
When raised as a JW, in my searches and as a person myself, it makes for a depressive outlook, and generally creates depression.

Not too long ago there were 2 children, brother and sister, raised in this religon strictly and they were so afraid of the war that they ran off into the woods and shot each other, so that they wouldnt have to view it.

When your rasied in this religion, from childhood (since your a baby i mean) it is a depressing thing. Especially if you go to school. Because they teach you if your friends dont believein god, one they arent your true friends, and 2 if you make it through the end of things, they will be killed while you live on. That kind of weight can be dangerous. And not to mention the fears of what will happen to you if you dont make it.
There is a childrens book and it explains this in a way a child should never have something explained to them. Suffering in death of the war is promised, so if you've messed up some where along the line your going to suffer, and as a child this is a scary prospect. It isnt the 'monster in my closet, monster under my bed" its the suffering before a horrible death and to never see your friends if you make it. You dont win.

Even as a kid your already isolated because people think your weird for not saluting the flag, say in US anyways. Your instantly weird. When you step out of the room for holiday parties, and ect.
Its a very sad thing, and results in a tragic death of the two kids or the depression of a teen/adult.

What do you think?

I agree with you that some of the literature is very graphic when it describes armageddon and your right, its scary for children. I think the society has mellowed in that regard in more recent years...but its true that armageddon is never glossed over.

the fact of the matter is that no one really knows what armageddon is going to be like, we've never seen a war by God so its hard for us to imagine it. Thats why the portrayal of armageddon by the society is pretty much based on the graphic portrayal of it found in the bible.

I asked my son what he thinks of armageddon and his reply was 'destruction'
Then i asked him what he though of Terrorists blowing up the world trade towers and he said 'destruction'
Then i asked him what he thought of the US and Australia sending troops into Afghanistan to fight terrorism and he said it was 'good'.
I have explained to him that armageddon will be no different to what the US and Australia are currently doing. Just as our countries want to put an end to terrorism and suffering and wicked dictators, so Jehovah will put an end to all wars, all wickedness and all suffering by his war against such things.

Now you tell me whats different about what Jehovah wants to do and what our own governments do every day?
I think the society tries to promote armageddon as a time of salvation but the destruction aspect is unavoidable...for there to be peace, there must first be war and this is the principle that our own governments understand because they are fighting such a cause.

But dont think that jehovah will be making people suffer during that battle...he is not a God who causes pain and suffering to anyone. Those whom he deems as unworthy of life will simply cease to exist...they will not even realise it when it happens. All Jehovah has to do is take away their 'spirit' and they expire.
Psalm 104:29 states: “If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit they expire, and back to their dust they go.”

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

Oh i disagree with both. I disagree with war in a whole, volience. I'm Pacifist, I hate argument and fighting. I prefer to sort things out with words. Not that it isnt required SOMETIMES. But i still dont like it.

And god has caused suffering, kowningly, before.
The plauges count. And I dont like the reasons he gives.
and it also brings me back to saying God is molevolant.

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

and it goes on to say he did it to show them he's God. Multipul times. God has inflicted pain and suffering, on purpose with the knowledge that that is what he has done =/

 

[Pegg]

Oh i disagree with both. I disagree with war in a whole, volience. I'm Pacifist, I hate argument and fighting. I prefer to sort things out with words. Not that it isnt required SOMETIMES. But i still dont like it.

i agree, im the same and all christians are told to be pacifists also...jesus was a pacifist to the point when he was struck violently, he did not retaliate. None one likes war...thats precisely why we need Jehovah to step in and put an end to it.

And god has caused suffering, kowningly, before.
The plauges count. And I dont like the reasons he gives.
and it also brings me back to saying God is molevolant.

1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

and it goes on to say he did it to show them he's God. Multipul times. God has inflicted pain and suffering, on purpose with the knowledge that that is what he has done =/

he could possibly be considered malevolent if he actually enjoyed watching the Egyptians suffering with the various plagues...but he doesn't enjoy seeing any of his creations suffer...not even the humblest of animals.

The one who really put the Egyptian people thru needless suffering was the man in charge who refused to let the Isrealites go at Gods command. It is his fault that they suffered just as the wars of the nations today are the result of the men in charge... we need them out of the way because man does not rule with love and justice unlike Jehovah.

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

It was god who made him disagree! Thats why I made that statement red.
He HARDENED the mans heart, so that he would NOT allow them.
It says that, god said that himself.

 

[Pegg]

It was god who made him disagree! Thats why I made that statement red.
He HARDENED the mans heart, so that he would NOT allow them.
It says that, god said that himself.

that verse is a similar verse as found in Genesis where God tells eve that he will increase the pain of her pregnancy. To Adam it is said that the earth will cause thorns and thistles to grow from it which would make cultivating the land difficult....the earth did not really do that, it was simply the result of not having God control the matter.

These things are said in the sense that God allows such a thing to happen and therefore the terminology sounds that he will cause it...in a way he does cause it because he does not stop it when he has the power to stop it.

 

[Tiapan]

Turning blue holding my breath.

Cheers

 

[AnnaTheBeast]

You just defeated the purpose of god. :/
If the earth can create things by itself than that means that god has no place and it constitutes evolution. The earth changes, and as it changes things change with in it, creating a different organism, and that part of evolution. You cant constitue evolution as a JW.
Unless I took your statment out of context.
So if there was no god, and earth was here, then eventually it would create something, if you believe creationism, the earth couldnt create thorns or anything for that matter, the earth is just there. Your point is kind of void in a way. God had to have made it difficult by making it grow things like thorns.

 

[Pegg]

You just defeated the purpose of god. :/
If the earth can create things by itself than that means that god has no place and it constitutes evolution. The earth changes, and as it changes things change with in it, creating a different organism, and that part of evolution. You cant constitue evolution as a JW.
Unless I took your statment out of context.
So if there was no god, and earth was here, then eventually it would create something, if you believe creationism, the earth couldnt create thorns or anything for that matter, the earth is just there. Your point is kind of void in a way. God had to have made it difficult by making it grow things like thorns.

my comment was to explain how it can be said that God is responsible for things.
In the case of 'hardening Pharaohs heart' He did not literally give Pharaoh a hard heart...but because he did not change Pharaohs hard heart its as if he gave Pharaoh a hard heart.

Do you understand what I am saying? Its a difficult thing to comprehend but think of it this way. If I know that the train will be coming 10 minutes early today, but I fail to tell you and you miss the train, it could be said that I caused you to miss the train for the reason that I failed to inform you.

Its in this same way that God 'caused' Pharaohs heart to be hard and in this way that Eves pain was increased and the earth produced thorns.