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The End of Religious Debates

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Despite ALL of the truth of the OP - there's also still a reason to engage. It's the very reason I do. That is, to have my thoughts provoked... to hone my singular ideas and ideals. To have "adversaries" challenge me and force me to think my way out of the boxes they try to put me in. Without it there are ideas I have now that wouldn't exist for me... and others that would have stagnated and I wouldn't have taken further.

Besides... it is terribly fun.
 

interminable

منتظر
How will this be done?



Who, then, is "him"?

Read this carefully please

And reject it logically

Existence which it is assumed intellectually can be either necessary or possible. intellectually, no existent lies outside these two assumptions and every existent can't be assumed to be a possible existent because a possible existent always needs a cause. If all causes were possible existents, each one of them in turn requiring a cause, no existent would ever come into being. In other words an infinite regress of causes is impossible. Therefore an infinite series of causes must be compelled to terminate in an existent that isn't an effect of any other existent for example necessary existent.

More explanation

Possibility and necessity

All propositions whether simple or complex have two fundamental concepts (subject and predicate) for example in the following axiom the sun shines which establishes signing for the sun the sun is the subject and shining is the predicate. The establishment of a predicate for a subject has no more than three states: it could be impossible such as the number three is greater than the number four or it could be necessary such as the number two is half of the number four or it could be neither impossible nor necessary for instance the sun is above our heads.
In the terminology of logic the first proposition has the state of impossibility , the second proposition is given the attribute of necessity and the third state is considered as possible.
However in philosophy only existence is discussed and those things that are incapable of being ,of occurring and are impossible will never exist in the external world. For this reason philosophy regards existence from an intellectual respective as being either necessary or possible existence.
Necessary existence is known as an existence which exists in itself and doesn't depend upon another existent. Naturally such an existent will have no beginning and no end, because the non existence of something in a particular time is an indication that it's existence isn't from itself. In order for it to come into existence it would need another existent which would be the cause or the condition for its realization. The absence of this condition or cause would be the reason for its annihilation.
Possible existence is known as an existent which doesn't exist in itself and depend on another existent in order for it to be realized.
These divisions which have been made through intellectual perception essentially disregard impossible existence , but they don't indicate whether a particular existent is a possible or necessary existent.
In other words the principles of this point of view can be conceptualized in three essential forms:
1 every existent is a necessary existent
2 every existent is a possible existent
3 some are necessary and some are possible existents.

On the basis of the first and third assumptions , the existence of a necessary existent is established
therefore the assumption that should be reviewed would be whether or not all existents are possible existents.
However by disproving this assumption (that all existents are possible existents) the existence of the necessary existent would be definitely and conclusively proven. The establishment of unity and other attributes must be proven with other arguments.
Therefore in order to disprove the second assumption we can say that

Every possible existent needs a cause and it's impossible to have an endless again of causes. Thus the endless chain of causes is compelled to terminate at an existent that isn't in need of a cause for example the necessary existent.
This argument introduces other philosophical concepts which need a brief description.

Cause and effect

If an existent requires another existent and depends upon that other existent for its existence, then in philosophical terminology the caused existent is known as the effect and the other causative existent is known as cause. However it's possible that a cause can also be an effect and be a dependent existent that isn't absolutely free from need. If a cause is absolutely free from need and doesn't depend upon any other existent then it will be the absolute cause.
Possible existent doesn't exist in itself and has no alternative other than to depend upon another existent. Thus every predicate recognized for the subject is either established by itself or by means of other than itself. For example everything either shines in and of itself or requires something else for its illumination or everybody is oily in itself or needs oil for becoming oily. It's impossible for something in itself to not be illuminating or oily and not receive light or oil from something else while at the same time being oily and illuminating!
Hence the establishment of existence for a subject is either through its essence or by means other than itself and when it's not through its essence then it has to be by means of other than itself. Therefore every possible existent that is not realized through its essence is bound to be realized by means of other than itself which implies that it is an effect. This provides us with the fundamental intellectual principle that every possible existent needs a cause.

Very important point

Some imagine that the principle of causation means that all existents need a cause and therefore God needs a primary cause. They have overlooked the fact that the subject of the principle of causation is the existent in the possible sense and its effect Not in the existent in the absolute sense. Not all existents need a cause , only those which are dependable and are in need.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
What if you discovered that nothing happens after we die, would you still be satisfied ?.
The worst part is, if "nothing happens after you die" (which I, honestly, wholeheartedly believe), then you can't "discover" it. You aren't there to comprehend that there is "nothing" or that you are no more.

The reason this is bad is because it means all the "holier than thou" types don't even get the spanking they deserve when there ends up not being an afterlife. They just disappear.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
it is terribly fun.

That it is! Well, unless it becomes pointless bickering and fighting.

The reason this is bad is because it means all the "holier than thou" types don't even get the spanking they deserve when there ends up not being an afterlife. They just disappear.

Shoot, that doesn't even necessarily happen in some afterlives.

Read this carefully please

And reject it logically

To do that properly, I'll have to get back to that after work (around 16:00 CST)

As an aside note, are we required to quote previous comments here, or can we submit replies without quoting?
 

Valerian

Member
But id nothing happens you would never know, and if your wrong, again you will never know, do you have fear of death ?.

Right. But I am not talking about after I die how I might feel. I am talking about right now. If I had no idea if God were real and what might lie after the grave I would go mad.

I have no fear of death. However, if I thought like you did that all existence and consciousness ended at that point of death, then, yes, I would be in abject despair right now knowing that.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I have no fear of death. However, if I thought like you did that all existence and consciousness ended at that point of death, then, yes, I would be in abject despair right now knowing that.

Why? Wouldn't it be a comfort, to know with certainty that nothing lies beyond? No risk of punishment for a life that might be lived wrongly?
 

interminable

منتظر
That it is! Well, unless it becomes pointless bickering and fighting.



Shoot, that doesn't even necessarily happen in some afterlives.



To do that properly, I'll have to get back to that after work (around 16:00 CST)

As an aside note, are we required to quote previous comments here, or can we submit replies without quoting?
Feel free
We are here to seek the truth.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Right. But I am not talking about after I die how I might feel. I am talking about right now. If I had no idea if God were real and what might lie after the grave I would go mad.

I have no fear of death. However, if I thought like you did that all existence and consciousness ended at that point of death, then, yes, I would be in abject despair right now knowing that.

Sounds to me a bit like you're not too confident in your emotional or mental stability. Well... at least you have God, I guess. Or, I mean... you think you do. Or... well... you get the idea.
 

Valerian

Member
Why? Wouldn't it be a comfort, to know with certainty that nothing lies beyond? No risk of punishment for a life that might be lived wrongly?

I gave a serious answer. It would cause me to go mad.

Human life and consciousness is one trillion times more intense and enthralling than any animal on the planet. For anyone to look a their daughter or son or spouse and realize this will all end one day and I will never see you again --- sorry, that is unthinkable, unconscionable.

Psalm 139 says >> “For you Lord created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.” God did not created man in His own image only to be cast into the fire and forgotten forever.
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
Existence which it is assumed intellectually can be either necessary or possible...

This actually didn't take as long as I thought it would.

Now, if I'm understanding you properly here, your point is that existence - either as a possibility or a necessity - necessitates a creator, yes? Even if this is so, how would this prove one god over several, or more precisely how would it prove your god above others?

--------------------

For anyone to look a their daughter or son or spouse and realize this will all end one day and I will never see you again --- sorry, that is unthinkable, unconscionable.

I suppose that's where we differ - well, one among many. If I were certain that there's nothing after, I wouldn't feel sorrow for never seeing my wife again, because she would never see me again. Neither of us would be sorrowful after death, as there would be nothing. And so, our life in the now would become that much more meaningful, as it's all we'd have.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Human life and consciousness is one trillion times more intense and enthralling than any animal on the planet.

Please don't tell me that the above is still part of a "serious answer". This is just plain arrogance, foolishness, naivete. Take your pick.

For anyone to look a their daughter or son or spouse and realize this will all end one day and I will never see you again --- sorry, that is unthinkable, unconscionable.

What's wrong with saying "let's enjoy this while we can" instead? And if non-existence after death is the truth, then how can you ever claim that the truth is "unconscionable?" Again... this just reads as foolishness to me. The truth doesn't have a conscience.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
If someone has a particular belief about God(s), whether it is theistic, atheistic or anywhere in between, why argue with them if their beliefs don't actually harm anyone else, the environment or the universe? Why feel compelled to educate, admonish, or convert them?

You already believe the debate to be viable or you would not be doing just that: debating it.
 

interminable

منتظر
This actually didn't take as long as I thought it would.

Now, if I'm understanding you properly here, your point is that existence - either as a possibility or a necessity - necessitates a creator, yes? Even if this is so, how would this prove one god over several, or more precisely how would it prove your god above others?

--------------------



I suppose that's where we differ - well, one among many. If I were certain that there's nothing after, I wouldn't feel sorrow for never seeing my wife again, because she would never see me again. Neither of us would be sorrowful after death, as there would be nothing. And so, our life in the now would become that much more meaningful, as it's all we'd have.
Don't be hasty

I just wanna prove that by causality and infinite regress we can prove the existence of an infinite existent that is necessary

To prove my god other arguments are required
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I just wanna prove that by causality and infinite regress we can prove the existence of an infinite existent that is necessary

Only I don't think that it is necessary, and indeed science would even counter infinite existence. For instance, this universe will end. When it reaches it's farthest expanses, regresses, and collapses in on itself, it will cease to be. What comes after is up to greater debate, but the point being that even this existence is not infinite. Yet here we are, for quite some time still yet.

Not even for the existence of gods is infinity always a necessity. Many religions have no opinion on the matter, where some even hold that the gods will even die when all ends.
 

Valerian

Member
Please don't tell me that the above is still part of a "serious answer". This is just plain arrogance, foolishness, naivete. Take your pick.



What's wrong with saying "let's enjoy this while we can" instead? And if non-existence after death is the truth, then how can you ever claim that the truth is "unconscionable?" Again... this just reads as foolishness to me. The truth doesn't have a conscience.

Once again, we can condense these conversations down to one premise or pretext. I have evidence that God exists and that god is the God of the Bible. You and yours contend no such evidence or proof exists.

Given my premise, all my answers and rationale flow from that. If God created man then, yes, man is one trillion times more valuable to God than any other animal. Anything less is inane.

But if you insist there is no proof this God exists, then you reject any value put on man except that he is a miraculous accident risen from a pile of rocks. That, to me, makes zero sense in every stretch of the imagination.
 
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Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Eh, my gods demonstrably and obviously exist, I just don't give a crap about proving anything to anyone. The religious traditions that obsess about that are the "one true way" paths that want to convert you to their path. Not how I roll. But it's pretty par for the course for polytheists to be "meh, you do whatever, I'll do my whatever" and leave it at that.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
FzduPFX.jpg


Apparently, you ain't looking hard enough. I've said this many times before, it's not a matter of lack, but rather an apprehension to accept, meaning it's more psychological than evidential. Atheists and the like just don't want to believe.
You say this as though atheists, even on this forum, haven't addressed each of those points many times. Shall I run through the search for a few minutes and post debate points on why atheists don't conclude any of those are evidence for a god or gods?
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
Eh, my gods demonstrably and obviously exist, I just don't give a crap about proving anything to anyone. The religious traditions that obsess about that are the "one true way" paths that want to convert you to their path. Not how I roll. But it's pretty par for the course for polytheists to be "meh, you do whatever, I'll do my whatever" and leave it at that.

If there were many gods, don't you think they would of had some kind of a competition?
 
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