The Eternal Self

[Fool]

per the OT the eternal impersonal self existed before the form?


jeremiah 1:5


so then the form is temporal and counts for nothing, a flash in the pan?

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
It can't be eternal if it is formed by someone. The eternal self will not need to be formed, since it is eternal.

 

[dybmh]

per the OT the eternal impersonal self existed before the form?


jeremiah 1:5


so then the form is temporal and counts for nothing, a flash in the pan?

Even if the first part is true, I don't see how it contributes to the conclusion.

For example: the blueprints for a house existed before the house. Does that fact render the house itself valueless? The house 'counts for nothing'?

 

[Fool]

Even if the first part is true, I don't see how it contributes to the conclusion.

For example: the blueprints for a house existed before the house. Does that fact render the house itself valueless? The house 'counts for nothing'?

from the imprint, many, from the all(singular) the all(plural)

 

[dybmh]

from the imprint, many, from the all(singular) the all(plural)

and they're all made of tickey tack and they all look the same?

diversity exists

 

[Fool]

and they're all made of tickey tack and they all look the same?

diversity exists

you like that song, don't you?

diversity exists in forms; which are temporal. the energy that creates them is eternal. thus forms are temporal, seemingly contradictory, impermanent. the action isn't. the action is permanent. the form changes, the action doesn't

 

[dybmh]

diversity exists in forms; which are temporal.

From the perspective of the eternal, time is meaningless, the forms that have existed always will exist. Therefore diversity appears temporal, because we are temporal. If we were eternal, diversity would appear eternal as well.

 

[Brian2]

per the OT the eternal impersonal self existed before the form?

jeremiah 1:5

so then the form is temporal and counts for nothing, a flash in the pan?

God knows the future and so can know someone even before they are born. It does not mean we know God however or that we existed.

 

[Fool]

God knows the future and so can know someone even before they are born. It does not mean we know God however or that we existed.

there is no future for god. god exists everywhere at all times. for you their may be a future/past/present but an omnipresent being. there is no such. you are trying to create god in your image

 

[The Crimson Universe]

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
It can't be eternal if it is formed by someone. The eternal self will not need to be formed, since it is eternal.

I think the verse is speaking not of the eternal SELF but of the body made of flesh and bones. It is only the physical body that forms in the belly/womb.
The eternal SELF / infinite spirit / Brahman / consciousness / energy (whatever you call it) never really takes birth or dies. It is never created or destroyed.
IMO the eternal SELF simply manifests as living and non-living things (from spirit to matter). That is what we probably call creation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

But who knew it before it was born, who sanctified it, who ordained a prophet unto the nations? Something other than the eternal self?
That is where I differ.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

But who knew it before it was born, who sanctified it, who ordained a prophet unto the nations? Something other than the eternal self?
That is where I differ.

The one who knew before we were born, the one who sanctified it and ordained a prophet, is probably the personal God ( what hindus call saguna sakara ishwar).

I know you don't believe in such a personal God but in the scripture Gita, the Lord Himself says, "i know all your previous lives."

 

[Aupmanyav]

So, this personal God was there even before the eternal. But why does the eternal need to be created? A contradiction of terms.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

@Aupmanyav, No. The eternal (Brahman) always existed in a spirit state, thats what i've read in one book, even before the manifestation of personal God.
From that Brahman, manifests all subtle and physical forms, including Gods and jeevas.
I think it was Ramakrishna who once said, "just like how icebergs forms in the vast ocean, the same way, the impersonal Nirguna Brahman assumes various anthropomorphic forms on how devotees imagine Him out of pure bhakti."
:=)

 

[Aupmanyav]

The eternal (Brahman) always existed in a spirit state, thats what i've read in one book, even before the manifestation of personal God.
From that Brahman, manifests all subtle and physical forms, including Gods and jeevas.
I think it was Ramakrishna who once said, "just like how icebergs forms in the vast ocean, the same way, the impersonal Nirguna Brahman assumes various anthropomorphic forms on how devotees imagine Him out of pure bhakti.":=)
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So now, Eternal is older that the personal God. In previous posts you were saying that the Personal God creates the Eternal.
For me, an atheist and science-inclined, the subtle means dark matter and dark energy.
Ramakrishna was correct if he said this that the 'Impersonal Brahman' (which may not be a God, is not a God for me) appears as Personal God due to imagination in the minds of the devotees.
Assume nothing, and we will minimize mistakes.

 

[The Crimson Universe]

So now, Eternal is older that the personal God.In previous posts you were saying that the Personal God creates the Eternal.
For me, an atheist and science-inclined, the subtle means dark matter and dark energy.

I don't remember saying "personal God creates eternal". But if i said such a thing it was probably a mistake on my end.

When i replied to the OP's Bible verse i simply gave my interpretation of that verse, which was, it is only the vessel/sheath/bodies that forms in the womb, not the Spirit/Self/Brahman.

IMO, and from what i've read and discussed online, the Eternal Spirit/Self/Brahman is never created, or destroyed. It just remains as it is, for all eternity. Whatever we see taking birth are just manifestations, as ajay0 explained it to me.

Anyway, from this Eternal impersonal Spirit/Self/Brahman, (which isn't God) comes all manifestations.

First the Eternal impersonal Spirit/Self/Brahman, manifests as personal God. Then this personal God like Yahweh, Brahma or Vishnu creates (infact create isn't the right word) since nothing in this universe is created or destroyed. So yeah, as i was saying, then this personal God manifests all sorts of entities (by entities i mean the subtle and physical vessels).
These vessels are simply sheaths, and not the REAL us ... The Real 'us' is Spirit/Self/Brahman.

In other words, it is 'we' the Brahman, who manifests everything in the cosmos.
And once we 'become' the vessels/sheaths/manifestations, by the help of maya (the illusory power), we tend to forget who we really are. (Our original state is Spirit and not the material manifestations).

You're free to disagree with my views. That's ok. Everyone has their own way of interpreting the divine message. :=)

 

[Brian2]

there is no future for god. god exists everywhere at all times. for you their may be a future/past/present but an omnipresent being. there is no such. you are trying to create god in your image

I'm just communicating with another human.
If I said "God is" instead of "God knows the future" the meaning would be lost.

 

[Fool]

I'm just communicating with another human.
If I said "God is" instead of "God knows the future" the meaning would be lost.

only to you. god is the past/future. nothing but god, god is all. god is omnipresent. Nothing exists apart from god because god is all. you are not because you do not know what god is and don't believe in eternal/everlasting life.


god knows

you believe you have a future but don't consider the past was your future. your future is at the beginning. eternal life has no beginning and end. god has no beginning and no end.

 

[Aupmanyav]

First the Eternal impersonal Spirit/Self/Brahman, manifests as personal God. Then this personal God like Yahweh, Brahma or Vishnu creates (infact create isn't the right word) since nothing in this universe is created or destroyed. So yeah, as i was saying, then this personal God manifests all sorts of entities (by entities i mean the subtle and physical vessels).

Well, I am an atheist. I do not believe in existence of God/his son/prophets/messengers/manifestations/mahdis. I do not believe in magic that a personal God manifests all sort of entities. Science tells me how things were created. I do not believe in sheaths, koshas. I do not believe in anything for which the theists cannot give evidence. Yes, all things that we perceive or not, are Brahman. They are Brahman in all their states, including humans, whether enlightened or unenlightened. There is nothing other than Brahman in the universe. That you have different views is perfectly OK with me.
'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma' (All things here are Brahman), 'Aham Brahmasmi' (I am Brahman), 'Tat twam asi' (You are that).
Simple philosophy, without any embellishments.

 

[Brian2]

only to you. god is the past/future. nothing but god, god is all. god is omnipresent. Nothing exists apart from god because god is all. you are not because you do not know what god is and don't believe in eternal/everlasting life.

god knows

you believe you have a future but don't consider the past was your future. your future is at the beginning. eternal life has no beginning and end. god has no beginning and no end.

The meaning is lost because of the language you use.
Why do you say I don't believe in eternal/everlasting life?