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The Evidence for Evolution in the Fossil Record

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Tengrism is not a religion, it is a life view and universal. It is not dogmatic and based on the life, life experiences.

Reincarnation... Maybe we believe and also don't believe in it. There is no strong belief in reincarnation like other Asian religions. They say, if we do good things we will reborn as human or God, if we do bad things in this life we will reborn as insects and animals.

It is so haughty. Insects and animals are shown like bad and low, fallen things. But we believe that we all come from God and we all equal.

But involve and reincarnation connection is dark for us. Maybe we can believe, maybe not. But personally I don't believe this asian thinking.

I'd agree we are all God's creations, I wouldn't consider animals 'bad' but rather something we are given dominion over, so perhaps lower in that sense- though my cat apparently never saw it that way!

I tend to agree with the loop concept also though i'm not sure how it works, but it does not make sense to me that everything a soul learns would be entirely discarded at death.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Home | NOVA Labs | PBS

I recommend that theist or atheist should not post from ignorance.

And mythology is not credible means of explaining anything in nature.


Education and knowledge is power, in these debates.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Yet it is a known mechanism that can and no other known mechanism has any evidence. So if we have evidence it was and no evidence that it was anything else why would we ever assume it was something else?

That was the exact rational behind classical physics, Newtons 'immutable' laws was it not? and the reason the ultraviolet catastrophe was so named- taking a nice simple complete intuitive explanation and exposing it as a superficial illusion was not eagerly embraced.



The problem being that random changes that weed out all detrimental ones and emphasize the improved ones DOES drive for significant improvements. There are not missing links between major deisng changes. A "missing link" is a myth more or less in today's world. The "missing link" that was talked about before was finding a human ancestor that was obviously human but not quite human. We have found several of these.

In that case a manufacturer could save the money on engineers and designers, simply make random changes, and let the best ones be selected.

The problem being that most random changes ARE detrimental, the car with the broken seat warmer is chosen over the broken engine- thus functionality and diversity is quickly reduced to it's simplest form- in the case of a car- something that moves, for life- a mere replicator, that's all nature selects for in the end is it not? and without added specific design instructions, the purest form is the result- that's entropy.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
That was the exact rational behind classical physics, Newtons 'immutable' laws was it not? and the reason the ultraviolet catastrophe was so named- taking a nice simple complete intuitive explanation and exposing it as a superficial illusion was not eagerly embraced.
Indeed. That is why it took tremendous amounts of evidence. Similarly so will this.
In that case a manufacturer could save the money on engineers and designers, simply make random changes, and let the best ones be selected.
If they wanted to have it take millions of years and waste billions of dollars yeah. But no one said that evolution was an efficient process. That is one of the arguments against ID.
The problem being that most random changes ARE detrimental, the car with the broken seat warmer is chosen over the broken engine- thus functionality and diversity is quickly reduced to it's simplest form- in the case of a car- something that moves, for life- a mere replicator, that's all nature selects for in the end is it not? and without added specific design instructions, the purest form is the result- that's entropy.
If they didn't knock out the less effective ones you would be right. But the broken car with a seat warmer wouldn't survive. For the car to have a seat warmer one would have to have a car that wasn't broken but had a seat warmer. That way this one single change was an improvement. And if it was one change at a time it would mean that if all other things were equal (as it more or less should be in this situation) the seat warmer will survive. You are talking about having more than one change at a time and while it does happen it is rare. IT just means that the car graveyard will be filled with defective junk that never was copied while the effective ones are. Thus it creates an ever changing but ever improving car.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Indeed. That is why it took tremendous amounts of evidence. Similarly so will this.

If they wanted to have it take millions of years and waste billions of dollars yeah. But no one said that evolution was an efficient process. That is one of the arguments against ID.

If they didn't knock out the less effective ones you would be right. But the broken car with a seat warmer wouldn't survive. For the car to have a seat warmer one would have to have a car that wasn't broken but had a seat warmer. That way this one single change was an improvement. And if it was one change at a time it would mean that if all other things were equal (as it more or less should be in this situation) the seat warmer will survive. You are talking about having more than one change at a time and while it does happen it is rare. IT just means that the car graveyard will be filled with defective junk that never was copied while the effective ones are. Thus it creates an ever changing but ever improving car.



I take your points here, but we get into shades of grey quickly- HOW fast. efficient etc-

but consider also- in the consumer, we are talking about a vast array of selection criteria- everything that creative imagination can crave in a car can be selected for -

yet the replicator only 'cares' about replication, by this analogy a consumer who only wanted no-frills transport, would only select no-frills transport. Anything not related to this would be a waste of money (i.e. wasted resources for species)

Point being - doesn't the system of selection, natural or artificial, only produce exactly what the selection criteria demands, nothing more. must run for now..
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I take your points here, but we get into shades of grey quickly- HOW fast. efficient etc-

but consider also- in the consumer, we are talking about a vast array of selection criteria- everything that creative imagination can crave in a car can be selected for -

yet the replicator only 'cares' about replication, by this analogy a consumer who only wanted no-frills transport, would only select no-frills transport. Anything not related to this would be a waste of money (i.e. wasted resources for species)

Point being - doesn't the system of selection, natural or artificial, only produce exactly what the selection criteria demands, nothing more. must run for now..
The issue being there is no traits that we have that can't be explained by evolution. None of it is "frills". All of it has to do with allowing us to be slightly better about surviving. There are a few exceptions which is where we have a rare occasions where two traits came about from the same organism and the good trait outweighed the bad and both were passed. I don't recall one at this exact moment but there are a few even within humans.

Though it isn't "what exactly is needed" as it isn't even that efficient. It is simply "what works the best out of what we have".
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Reading some responses in this thread reminded me of a pertinent quote, also from Richard Dawkins:

I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Ok so you have a problem with "who" let me rephrase.
Where did the "something" originate from?
It didn't, because if the requirement that something comes from something, than that something must've come from something as well.

Something is eternal.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Point being

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:

  1. In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
  2. Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
  3. Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
  4. Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
“Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life,” says evolutionary paleontologist David M. Raup, “what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record.”

In reality, the vast majority of fossils show stability among types of creatures over extensive amounts of time. The evidence does not show them evolving from one type into another. Unique body plans appear suddenly. New features appear suddenly. For example, bats with sonar and echolocation systems appear with no obvious link to a more primitive ancestor.

In fact, more than half of all the major divisions of animal life seem to have appeared in a relatively short period of time. Because many new and distinct life forms appear so suddenly in the fossil record, paleontologists refer to this period as “the Cambrian explosion.” When was the Cambrian period?

Let us assume that the estimates of researchers are accurate. In that case, the history of the earth could be represented by a time line that stretches the length of a soccer field (1). At that scale, you would have to walk about seven eighths of the way down the field before you would come to what paleontologists call the Cambrian period (2). During a small segment of that period, the major divisions of animal life show up in the fossil record. How suddenly do they appear? As you walk down the soccer field, all those different creatures pop up in the space of less than one step!" --Origin of Life-Five Questions Worth Asking


Some of the oldest and first fossils are the ones that evolved photosynthesis and why you breath Oxygen on this planet and not natural gas. Before you get to why are there still wolves or "kinds" or any animals.

As well as when the Earth first formed it did not have van allen belts so life would have been fried by solar radiation, not to mention constant meteor bombardment and magma. You jump much later into life, before a lot of other things happened. When the iron core of the Earth cooled it created the Van Allen belts and life could survive. You wouldn't survive on the surface of the moon, from solar radiation and no oxygen. Not to mention how the moon formed as well.




The Cosmic Timeline

Astrophysicists have deduced the age of the Universe
(dated from the Big Bang) to be
13.7 BILLION YEARS!


tlbigbang1.gif


tlbigbang2.gif


tlbigbang3.gif


tlbigbang4.gif




Imagine that the entire history of the universe is compressed into one year - with the Big Bang corresponding to the first second of the New Year's Day, and the present time to the last second of December 31st (midnight).

Using this scale of time, each month would equal a little over a billion years. Here's a closer look at when important events would occur when we imagine the universe in one year:

cosmiccalendar.gif


The Universe in One Year was inspired by the late astronomer, Carl Sagan (1934-1996). Sagan was the first person to explain the history of the universe in one year-as a "Cosmic Calendar"-in his television series, Cosmos.



Let us look at the calendar in a bit more detail:



Cosmic Calendar (From The Dragons of Eden - Carl Sagan)
Pre-December Dates

Big Bang January 1
Origin of Milky Way Galaxy May 1
Origin of the solar system September 9
Formation of the Earth September 14
Origin of life on Earth ~ September 25
Formation of the oldest rocks known on Earth October 2
Date of oldest fossils (bacteria and blue-green algae) October 9
Invention of sex (by microorganisms) ~ November 1
Oldest fossil photosynthetic plants November 12
Eukaryotes (first cells with nuclei) flourish November 15
December
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday
1

Significant oxygen atmosphere begins to develop on Earth.

2 3 4 5
Extensive vulcanism and channel formation on Mars.

6
7



8 9 10 11 12 13
14



15 16
First Worms.

17
Precambrian ends. Paleozoic Era and Cambrian Period begin. Invertebrates flourish.

18
First oceanic plankton. Trilobites flourish.

19
Ordovician Period. First fish, first vertebrates.

20
Silurian Period. First vascular plants. Plants begin colonization of land.

21
Devonian Period begins. First insects. Animals begin colonization of land.



22
First amphibians. First winged insects.

23
Carboniferous Period. First trees. First reptiles.

24
Permian Period begins. First dinosaurs.

25
Paleozoic Era ends. Mesozoic Era Begins.

26
Triassic Period. First mammals.

27
Jurassic Period. First birds.

28
Cretaceous Period. First flowers. Dinosaurs become extinct.



29
Mesozoic Era ends. Cenozoic Era and Tertiary Period begin. First cetaceans. First primates.

30
First evolution of frontal lobes in the brains of primates. First hominids. Giant mammals flourish.

31
End of Pliocene Period. Quaternary (Pleistocene and Holocene) Period. First humans.






December 31
Origin of Proconsul and Ramapithecus, probable ancestors of apes and men ~ 1:30 p.m.
First humans ~ 10:30 p.m.
Widespread use of stone tools 11:00 p.m.
Domestication of fire by Peking man 11:46 p.m.
Beginning of most recent glacial period 11:56 p.m.
Seafarers settle Australia 11:58 p.m.
Extensive cave painting in Europe 11:59 p.m.
Invention of agriculture 11:59:20 p.m.
Neolithic civilization; first cities 11:59:35 p.m.
First dynasties in Sumer, Ebla and Egypt; development of astronomy 11:59:50 p.m.
Invention of the alphabet; Akkadian Empire 11:59:51 p.m.
Hammurabic legal codes in Babylon; Middle Kingdom in Egypt 11:59:52 p.m.
Bronze metallurgy; Mycenaean culture; Trojan War; Olmec culture; invention of the compass 11:59:53 p.m.
Iron metallurgy; First Assyrian Empire; Kingdom of Israel; founding of Carthage by Phoenicia 11:59:54 p.m.
Asokan India; Ch'in Dynasty China; Periclean Athens; birth of Buddha 11:59:55 p.m.
Euclidean geometry; Archimedean physics; Ptolemaic astronomy; Roman Empire; birth of Christ 11:59:56 p.m.
Zero and decimals invented in Indian arithmetic; Rome falls; Birth of Islam and the Islamic Civilization 11:59:57 p.m.
Mayan civilization; Sung Dynasty China; Byzantine empire; Mongol invasion; Crusades 11:59:58 p.m.
Renaissance in Europe; voyages of discovery from Europe and from Ming Dynasty China; emergence of the experimental method in science 11:59:59 p.m.
Widespread development of science and technology; emergence of global culture; acquisition of the means of self-destruction of the human species; first steps in spacecraft planetary exploration and the search of extraterrestrial intelligence Now: The first second of New Year's Day



Within the scheme of the Cosmic Calendar, an average human life of 70-80 years is equivalent to approximately 0.16 cosmic seconds!

Cosmic Calendar
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Exactly.

Even if you reduce everything that we know of down to the atomic level, (breaking it all back into a nearly endless supply of atoms) you still have everything. Nothing ever goes away. It all just changes form and function.
Yup.

With that image in mind, if there was a God that created the world, it's more appropriate to think of this God intentionally changing himself into the universe, or parts of him, rather than creating it from nothing. The universe is perhaps the hand of God (as an allegory).
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Yup.

With that image in mind, if there was a God that created the world, it's more appropriate to think of this God intentionally changing himself into the universe, or parts of him, rather than creating it from nothing. The universe is perhaps the hand of God (as an allegory).
Certainly.

If there was a space for the argument of deity, it would have to be in that pre-existent realm, and of a deistic nature. I'm not against attempting to ponder that possibility. Any other claims of direct deitic involvement into the now-observable Universe, however, I think requires grasping.
 
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