The Evolution of Altruism

[cladking]

I can think of more.
But to list them would waste your time.
Actually, this post already wastes your time.
You should skip reading it.

Well, no, not a waste really.

Yes, there are more sins but just as George Carlin invented the reader's digest version of the Ten Commandments to read "be honest", I believe the real sins of humanity can be condensed as well. ie- almost every other sin includes one of these two sins, slavery, illogic or both.

Indeed, it can be claimed slavery is illogical so it reduces to the only sin is illogic and the only commandment is be honest.

 

[cladking]

Indeed, it can be claimed slavery is illogical so it reduces to the only sin is illogic and the only commandment is be honest.

The failure to be honest is illogical.

 

[Valjean]

BTW, she loathed libertarians, aka, "hippies".

LOL! -- today's libertarians are not the hippies she had issues with. Today's libertarians are aligning more and more with the GOP.

 

[Valjean]

Well, no, not a waste really.

Yes, there are more sins but just as George Carlin invented the reader's digest version of the Ten Commandments to read "be honest", I believe the real sins of humanity can be condensed as well. ie- almost every other sin includes one of these two sins, slavery, illogic or both.

Indeed, it can be claimed slavery is illogical so it reduces to the only sin is illogic and the only commandment is be honest.

How are you defining logic?

 

[Revoltingest]

The failure to be honest is illogical.

It can be perfectly logical when it's useful.

 

[Revoltingest]

LOL! -- today's libertarians are not the hippies she had issues with. Today's libertarians are aligning more and more with the GOP.

We align with issues, no matter who agrees with us.
Less war, stronger civil liberties...such things have
been problematic for Dems & Pubs, but occasionally
we'll find a politician on either side who's on our side.

 

[cladking]

How are you defining logic?

Good question since humans are no longer logical because the language in which we think is no longer logical.

Essentially "logical" simply means "common sense" within the confines of reason and human knowledge as interpreted by one's experience. We are a product of our time and place so "logic" evolves over time and is dependent on one's location. As knowledge becomes more varied and is increasingly derived from experiment there is some tendency for "logic" to become more standardized and to more closely approximate the logic which is nature but we should never assume that our "logic" (common sense) is a true reflection of reality and we should never lose sight of the simple fact that our logic is dependent on axioms and definitions.

Truth has always been elusive to individual life but it exists within the confines of experience and definitions. "Truth" is experienced by all life forms but human truth can be far more complex, universal, and abstract.

 

[cladking]

It can be perfectly logical when it's useful.

Granted.

But in the ideal we should live our life such that there is nothing to gain by dishonesty. Of course, we don't live in the ideal world so dishonesty is sometimes quite "natural".

 

[Revoltingest]

Granted.

But in the ideal we should live our life such that there is nothing to gain by dishonesty. Of course, we don't live in the ideal world so dishonesty is sometimes quite "natural".

More than natural...it's good to help
in preventing evil acts, eg, robbery.

 

[Ella S.]

Good question since humans are no longer logical because the language in which we think is no longer logical.

Essentially "logical" simply means "common sense" within the confines of reason and human knowledge as interpreted by one's experience. We are a product of our time and place so "logic" evolves over time and is dependent on one's location. As knowledge becomes more varied and is increasingly derived from experiment there is some tendency for "logic" to become more standardized and to more closely approximate the logic which is nature but we should never assume that our "logic" (common sense) is a true reflection of reality and we should never lose sight of the simple fact that our logic is dependent on axioms and definitions.

Truth has always been elusive to individual life but it exists within the confines of experience and definitions. "Truth" is experienced by all life forms but human truth can be far more complex, universal, and abstract.

See, this is where we disagree.

To me, logic is a formal discipline based in the mathematical principles of Boolean algebra, propositional calculus, type theory, and set theory. From these we derive a number of logical systems from classical/deductive logic, to categorical logic, to inductive logic, to modal logic, to fuzzy logic, etc.

There is also the ancient sense of "logic" used in Socratic intellectualism, which implies a rational and analytical mind that is extremely well fit for the practice of logic, and this is what Stoics would eventually call apatheia. This is also the form of "logic" used by Star Trek Vulcans, but it is based on a real concept.

While the latter form of logic is the only one I know of in which virtues are derived from logic itself, philosophers often use forms of logical argumentation to support a wide variety of positions. This includes an ongoing debate over the naturalistic fallacy, the moralistic fallacy, the is-ought gap, and the fact-value distinction.

In both senses, however, logic is at odds with common sense, because "common sense" is extremely prone to cognitive bias and fallacious reasoning. It takes careful practice to avoid these pitfalls.

 

[leroy]

Why would altruism be any different than any other physical or neurological trait? A small, weak, slow, defenseless, solitary ape would be at a considerable disadvantage roaming the African savanna.

Like most other primates, we band together, we're social. Band loyalty, coöperation and altruism, like bipedalism or apophenia, were selective. They increase fitness, ie: the chances of survival, and, crucially, reproductive success. Increased reproductive success increases the expression of these useful traits in the population. Selfish, anti-social specimens, like Rand, become rare.
-- Natural selection, 101.

The issue is that if you personally are altruistic you are less likely to survive and reproduce………. So why did NS selected something that makes you more likely to die.,

Altruism only works if everybody is altruistic at the same time ….. so how do you go from

1 a single individual that is altruistic (selectively negative)

To

2 a whole population that is altruistic (selectively positive )

 

[cladking]

To me, logic is a formal discipline based in the mathematical principles of Boolean algebra, propositional calculus, type theory, and set theory. From these we derive a number of logical systems from classical/deductive logic, to categorical logic, to inductive logic, to modal logic, to fuzzy logic, etc.

Yes. Logic can be very formal. Mathematics itself is merely quantified logic.

However, "logic" otherwise can never be truly logical because language is not logical any longer so can not be used to make any logical statement. "Common sense", however, can still result from the manipulation of models founded on the relative bedrock of experiment. Just as experiment itself is dependent on assumptions and definitions so too is common sense.

I can't dismiss logic and common sense because humans experience them and one of my foundational axioms is that reality exists and it exists pretty much as we all experience it. Without this axiom there is no certainty I even exist or that the world exists as I perceive it. There is no purpose to life, for me, without this being axiomatic and it has been such since I was a child.

 

[cladking]

More than natural...it's good to help
in preventing evil acts, eg, robbery.

It is generally good for the commonweal that people act for what is best for them and it is much better for the individual. Obviously however the sick, weak, and dispossessed must not be allowed to perish. It is in the best interests of every individual and the society that the poor and downtrodden get sufficient help.

Bringing everyone and their "significant whatever" to the exact same level as is so widely espoused today is communism pure and simple and is only good for the 99% and not for the wealthy.

 

[Valjean]

The issue is that if you personally are altruistic you are less likely to survive and reproduce………. So why did NS selected something that makes you more likely to die.,

Altruism only works if everybody is altruistic at the same time ….. so how do you go from

1 a single individual that is altruistic (selectively negative)

To

2 a whole population that is altruistic (selectively positive )

During the millions of years Natural Selection was creating our brains and psychology, we lived in small hunter-gatherer bands. Coöperation, band loyalty and altruism were crucial to survival, so everyone was altruistic at the same time, or they did die. An individual had little chance of surviving alone.
It's only been ~10,000 years since we began living in permanent settlements and farming, not enough time for a great deal of neurological change. We're fine tuned for small-band tribalism.

 

[Valjean]

Yes. Logic can be very formal. Mathematics itself is merely quantified logic.

However, "logic" otherwise can never be truly logical because language is not logical any longer so can not be used to make any logical statement. "Common sense", however, can still result from the manipulation of models founded on the relative bedrock of experiment. Just as experiment itself is dependent on assumptions and definitions so too is common sense.

I can't dismiss logic and common sense because humans experience them and one of my foundational axioms is that reality exists and it exists pretty much as we all experience it. Without this axiom there is no certainty I even exist or that the world exists as I perceive it. There is no purpose to life, for me, without this being axiomatic and it has been such since I was a child.

If linguistic imprecision or misuse affects the logical conclusions, you need to clarify the language. The problem isn't in the algebra.

Common sense? Foolishness!
The scientific revolution and recent explosion of human understanding of the world began when we abandoned common sense and began experimenting and testing.

 

[Tiberius]

Do you believe that evolution can explain the development of altruism in the human species or do you think that other factors were involved?

Altruism is when we act to promote someone else’s welfare, even at a risk or cost to ourselves.

​

Not that I'm agreeing with the above quote but, what do you think Rand meant by this?

We are social creatures and need to live as part of a community in order to survive. I mean, if everyone had to live solitary lives, then most of us would wind up dead before too long. Altruism helps us function as members of that society.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is generally good for the commonweal that people act for what is best for them and it is much better for the individual. Obviously however the sick, weak, and dispossessed must not be allowed to perish. It is in the best interests of every individual and the society that the poor and downtrodden get sufficient help.

Bringing everyone and their "significant whatever" to the exact same level as is so widely espoused today is communism pure and simple and is only good for the 99% and not for the wealthy.

I'm confused about how
this responds to my post.

 

[DNB]

Do you believe that evolution can explain the development of altruism in the human species or do you think that other factors were involved?

Altruism is when we act to promote someone else’s welfare, even at a risk or cost to ourselves.

​

Not that I'm agreeing with the above quote but, what do you think Rand meant by this?

No, care and compassion are not equivalent or tantamount to pragmatism. One stems from the heart, the other from intellect - for even a perceived act of altruism can be derived from a selfish motive, as we see this all the time with charitable events - helping the needy, or write-off and pretense?

Therefore, does authentic care for others evolve, develop, or is teachable? Possibly, but only in the case where we suffer and gain empathy for those who are in a similar situation - it is not based on a blueprint for survival. Altruism is a sacrifice on someone's part: either time, money, emotions, health and well-being - basically, the antithesis of survival.

Altruism is derived from loving others as you love yourself - it is neither calculated, feigned nor premeditated. Therefore, it did not evolve as a practical means for survival, but it is invoked when men suppress their selfish and secular desires.

 

[Nakosis]

Altruism is an emergent property of evolution (IMO).

Probably but the explanation for how it can about, that I've come across so far, are a bit weak IMO.
Since one is basically willing to sacrifice themselves for the group, how would the gene get passed on?

Unless it kicks in after procreation. One willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of their offspring.

 

[Nakosis]

No, care and compassion are not equivalent or tantamount to pragmatism. One stems from the heart, the other from intellect - for even a perceived act of altruism can be derived from a selfish motive, as we see this all the time with charitable events - helping the needy, or write-off and pretense?

Therefore, does authentic care for others evolve, develop, or is teachable? Possibly, but only in the case where we suffer and gain empathy for those who are in a similar situation - it is not based on a blueprint for survival. Altruism is a sacrifice on someone's part: either time, money, emotions, health and well-being - basically, the antithesis of survival.

Altruism is derived from loving others as you love yourself - it is neither calculated, feigned nor premeditated. Therefore, it did not evolve as a practical means for survival, but it is invoked when men suppress their selfish and secular desires.

Altruism derives from loving someone else more than yourself. To the point you are willing to sacrifice your own well being for the well being of another.
For example Jesus dying for humanity's sins. An act of altruism.
Something I could perhaps see doing for my kids. Not for a stranger though.