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The Evolutionary Argument Against Reality

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member


I'm working my way through these. The first PDF seems to be the most substantive one. But it is also the one that shows his overall thesis isn't as strong as he says it is.

I still don't have a firm opinion, but here are some first impressions.

1) If we live in 'The Matrix', then all perception is only interface and there really is nothing else there. There is no way to tell if this is the case.

2) His model is very simplistic and his terminology is slightly misleading.

For example, he gives a situation (which he later generalizes) where there is only food and water. Fitness is originally determined by the sum of the food and water variables. This changes later.

In this case, his 'truth' perception is one that knows the values of food and water and the 'simple' perceptual system is the one that ranks only one of the two: in essence, it gives a thumbs up if the amount of food or of water is above a threshold.

He also makes an adjustment so that determining the 'truth' takes more energy than the 'simple' system.

What he finds is not too surprising: if the cost of determining the truth is low, the truth perceptual system wins. But if the cost of determining the truth is high, the simple system wins. Essentially, if determining the truth is difficult and there is a rule of thumb that will work, the selection goes to the rule of thumb. But if finding truth is easy, it goes to truth.

This, by the way, is NOT what he claims in other papers. But this one is the one that gives a detailed analysis to prove what happens.

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Next, he modifies the fitness function so that both high and low levels of food or water are less 'fit' than medium levels. So, the organism doesn't want to drown or get buried by the food. The most fit situation is where there is some food and water but not too much of either.

Now, he adds another type of perceptual system: the interface system. While the 'truth' knows both the actual amounts of food and water and 'simple' knows gradings of both, these are rigged so that higher levels are seen as better in both systems (what he calls having a homomorphism). The interface system judges the intermediate levels as worthy of perception and less so for the extremes.

Well, again, the result is not too surprising. If the 'cost' of finding the 'truth' is small, the truth wins out. If it is high, the 'interface' version wins out.

-----------------------------------

This is extended to include more than two environmental variables and to allow those variables to not be independent. Similar results are found.
-----------------------------------

OK, a couple of comments.

1. it seems like his 'truth' vs 'simple' vs 'interface' are poorly chosen names. Even the interface version has a correct analysis of the value of the environment to the organism. This is to be expected to promote fitness.

2. In many ways, this seems to be a better description of 'awareness' than of 'perception'. if we pay attention to those things that promote fitness, we are more likely to survive. if finding the 'real story' is costly, a rule of thumb may well be better for survival.

3. In those cases where truth is easy to determine, the system *does* promote truth finding. So, where processing is relatively easy and doesn't take much energy, we can expect the system to promote truth rather than interface.

4. Since both his 'simple' and 'truth' systems are rigged to favor high values in the environment, it isn't surprising they fail when the fitness is to the medium values. But even there, the system correctly perceives the fitness level.

5. We *know* our visual system (for example) takes many shortcuts: it picks out edges, faces, and draws attention to motion. The first and last are easy to analyze and are actually done in th eye and not the brain. So we can expect that these perceptions are correct according to his analysis.

6. His analysis doesn't consider the possibility that correct detection of fitness conditions will, as a side-effect, promote correct detection of some other aspects of the environment. So, for example, we detect redness in fruit in part because it is a sign of ripeness. But that means we are likely to correctly detect redness in other situations simply because it is costly to detect red in one case and not in the others. So, even in cases that are NOT promoting fitness, we can expect that redness is often correctly perceived. The same is true for other easy perceptions (those not requiring excessive energy to determine).

7. We *know* our visual system often 'fills in the gaps' where there is no actual sensory data. So, for example, we all have a blind spot, but we seldom are aware of it because the system 'paints in' the missing information. This is 'non-truth' that is fabricated by our visual system.

8. We know of many other deficiencies of our visual system (I focus on this because it is more extensively studied--many of the same things can be said for other senses). So, for example, we only have three color receptors (some birds have up to seven). This means that we often see two things as having the same color even though they are, in fact, quite different physically (i.e, in reality).

9. This also ignores the simple fact that we cannot see many forms of light at all. Ultra-violet and infra-red are beyond our abilities to directly see. Similar things can be said about sounds.

10. The fact that we can determine such deficiencies in our sensory systems shows that we don't *only* have interface: we can and do often have information about reality.

---

So, my basic conclusion is that there is an important point here: our visual sensory systems are not *guaranteed* to give reliable information. In fact, in many situations we can *expect* them to fill in gaps, use rules of thumb, and minimize energy expenditure. None the less, we can expect those aspects where truth is easy to get and where such is linked heavily to survival to be accurate and for this accuracy to spread out to similar inputs.

I think claiming it is *all* interface is vastly over-stating the evidence he presented and even contradicting some of what his model shows.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Surely there's a fallacy at the heart of his hypothesis ─ his experiment purports to distinguish between a system of perceiving real v a system of perceiving useful,

But if his conclusion is correct ─ 'the chance that we can see reality is zero' ─ then he can't conduct an experiment in which one system in fact perceives reality, because his own conclusion bars him from knowing what reality is, hence how to perceive it.

So I think that goes too far.

It's nonetheless the case that we live in our brains and our brains interpret our sensory inputs, testing for any that require an appropriate reaction and where possible providing it.

So to be comfortable, we need to assume that fitness for survival is increased by accurately perceiving reality ie 'what is true', and to be reassured every time we get the result we want, be it picking up our coffee cup, kissing the right person or landing a Mars explorer.

But if you can think of a way to demonstrate once and for all that a world exists external to the self at all (let alone that we perceive it correctly) without first assuming that it does, then I'm all ears ─ do tell.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Surely there's a fallacy at the heart of his hypothesis ─ his experiment purports to distinguish between a system of perceiving real v a system of perceiving useful,

But if his conclusion is correct ─ 'the chance that we can see reality is zero' ─ then he can't conduct an experiment in which one system in fact perceives reality, because his own conclusion bars him from knowing what reality is, hence how to perceive it.

So I think that goes too far.

It's nonetheless the case that we live in our brains and our brains interpret our sensory inputs, testing for any that require an appropriate reaction and where possible providing it.

So to be comfortable, we need to assume that fitness for survival is increased by accurately perceiving reality ie 'what is true', and to be reassured every time we get the result we want, be it picking up our coffee cup, kissing the right person or landing a Mars explorer.

But if you can think of a way to demonstrate once and for all that a world exists external to the self at all (let alone that we perceive it correctly) without first assuming that it does, then I'm all ears ─ do tell.

One of the strengths of this hypothesis is that it uses what we 'know' of evolutionary biology to say that what we actually perceive may not be what is real.

And, frankly, that is clearly true. Every visual illusion shows this. Every inability to see infra-red light shows this. Every time our eyes adjust to lighting levels so we see the 'same' scene shows this.

Also, our perceptions and even our intuitions are horrible once we get away from the human scale of things in which we evolved. Go to the level of bacteria or up to the size of planets and our intuition gets to be quite poor unless supported by many observations and mathematics.

Next, perceptions that were useful for survival at one point are not necessarily now. For example, fats and sugars were quite rare on the African savanna, and we developed not only good detectors for such, but a very positive response to such: we eat them readily. But today, there are so many fats and sugars around us that these perceptions are no longer healthy. Is this really so different than the beetle mating with the beer can?

So I definitely agree that we very often do NOT see reality, but a construct in our brains that is tuned to survival of our ancestors.

But I agree it goes way too far. It assumes there is NO fitness in seeing things at least approximately the way they are. It assumes (very explicitly) that it takes less energy to produce an interface and maintain it than it does to use actual data from our environment. To me, that is far from clear.

So I think his claim that the chance that we see *any* aspect of our environment correctly to be zero is faulty. Even from his own scenariogiven the reasons he presents, his own methods show *when* we can expect our senses to be accurate. And that is often enough.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Another question I have about this is the extent to which our 'faults' in perception contribute to things like art and religion.

So, for example, when we look at a painting, the *goal* is not to see the reality: paint on a canvas. The goal is to see a representation of some other scene. If our sensory system was only truth-telling, many types of art would be impossible. To what extent being able to make and enjoy art contributes to evolutionary fitness is another question.

Religion is another place where our perceptions and reality may well differ. When we are young, we are inclined to adopt the views of those who are larger than ourselves. To what extent is the concept of a deity simply an extension of that perceptual trick? Given how deities are often called 'father' or 'mother', this could explain at least some aspects of religion.

And we can add to that an inclination to perceive intent and purpose even if such do not exist. For survival, it was better to think something in the environment had an intent and be wrong than to think it didn't and be wrong. In this way, it seems natural that we look for a 'large parent' with an intent to teach us how to live. Isn't that the (or an) essence of religious belief?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Another question I have about this is the extent to which our 'faults' in perception contribute to things like art and religion.

So, for example, when we look at a painting, the *goal* is not to see the reality: paint on a canvas. The goal is to see a representation of some other scene. If our sensory system was only truth-telling, many types of art would be impossible. To what extent being able to make and enjoy art contributes to evolutionary fitness is another question.

Religion is another place where our perceptions and reality may well differ. When we are young, we are inclined to adopt the views of those who are larger than ourselves. To what extent is the concept of a deity simply an extension of that perceptual trick? Given how deities are often called 'father' or 'mother', this could explain at least some aspects of religion.

And we can add to that an inclination to perceive intent and purpose even if such do not exist. For survival, it was better to think something in the environment had an intent and be wrong than to think it didn't and be wrong. In this way, it seems natural that we look for a 'large parent' with an intent to teach us how to live. Isn't that the (or an) essence of religious belief?

Both arguments work at least as well the other way around..

When we are young enough we don't question anything- we accept it 'just is' & many atheists use this to argue atheism as the 'default' position- requiring 'no belief' if at some later stage we adopt the more experienced and thoughtful conclusions our parents have made, that's usually closely followed by questioning everything our parents think!

But either way we grow up surrounded by a world of natural wonders from day one, so the default temptation is to accept such wonders as simply 'natural', commonplace, unremarkable, without need of further explanation. It's digging a little deeper into these phenomena- that leads us to marvel at them & question their 'default - unguided' nature.

So at it's core, religious belief is the original skepticism, that reality is not as it seems superficially, there is far more to it than meets the eye, and science could hardly have backed this up any more emphatically
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Polymath

"One of the strengths of this hypothesis is that it uses what we 'know' of evolutionary biology to say that what we actually perceive may not be what is real.'​

But I'm not the one who said ''the chance that we can see reality is zero' ─ our author said that; and as I said, I think that conclusion voids his experiment.

But I agree with all your points about the errors our senses can and do make. I add that the best method we know for reducing the problems of subjectivity is scientific method, which eg gives us instruments that give readings about the external world often much more exact than our senses (though not yet as exact as dogs' noses &c).

Thus when it comes to the cosmos, we can use increasingly better detectors across the whole EM spectrum, when it comes to microorganisms we can use microscopes of increasing sophistication, when it comes to the realms of the atom we can use colliders, scans, laser manipulations and so on, all of which are invented by our wits and power to reason, and inform our brains via our senses.

By maximizing objectivity and arguing honestly and openly from evidence, we get our best shot at what is objectively 'true'.

(But since 'true' (in my view) means 'according with reality', and since our understanding of reality is very often the best opinion of the best informed (ie experts) and since that changes from time to time, objective truth changes along with them.)

The problems of subjectivity do not then disappear. Our brains relentlessly interpret our sensory inputs according to what seems or is instinctively seen as relevant. A garden when no one is looking at it is clusters of atoms, pulls and pushes of forces, refractions and reflections &c. It's only a tree, a herb, a pond, a duck, because we interpret those things from the information; we've evolved to perceive these things as separate from their background and their neighbors. Likewise without a brain interpreting, there are no numbers - any random selection of atoms or clusters of atoms in our garden is as valid as any other, which is to say, not valid but non-existent, because no one's there to care.

That's why it seems to me that ─ given we think we're evolved creatures ─ we should assume that it's good for survival to perceive, at the least, local reality in an accurate way, and through that window of assumption let in the idea that what we perceive when we're scrupulously careful and scientifically methodical does reflect objective reality after all ─ even if it does so through a lens evolved primarily to be useful for survival.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Polymath

"One of the strengths of this hypothesis is that it uses what we 'know' of evolutionary biology to say that what we actually perceive may not be what is real.'​

But I'm not the one who said ''the chance that we can see reality is zero' ─ our author said that; and as I said, I think that conclusion voids his experiment.

Agreed.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
I'm working my way through these. The first PDF seems to be the most substantive one. But it is also the one that shows his overall thesis isn't as strong as he says it is.
Thanks for engaging. Your thoughts are welcome. I'm trying to work through this one just now: http://cogsci.uci.edu/~ddhoff/PerceptualEvolution.pdf

The abstract says: We find that veridical perceptions can be driven to extinction by non-veridical strategies that are tuned to utility rather than objective reality. This suggests that natural selection need not favor veridical perceptions, and that the effects of selectionon sensory perception deserve further study.

Which I have to note is similar to what you've said in the post I've quoted. Thanks for having a go at this, I've found it helpful.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Surely there's a fallacy at the heart of his hypothesis ─ his experiment purports to distinguish between a system of perceiving real v a system of perceiving useful,

But if his conclusion is correct ─ 'the chance that we can see reality is zero' ─ then he can't conduct an experiment in which one system in fact perceives reality, because his own conclusion bars him from knowing what reality is, hence how to perceive it.
Hi.

He's comparing strategies in computer simulations so he can define the reality percieving strategy as correctly percieving whatever environment he simulates/determines. He calls them Monte Carlo simulations and refers to the models as a kind of evolutionary game theory.

This is the kind of stuff in his papers:

In this game, the external world has three territories, T1,T2,T3 and one resource, say food, that takes discrete values in the set V {1,2,...,m}

The paper survived peer-review so I'd like to think a fallacy that undermines the project would have been spotted by one of the experts.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Hi.

He's comparing strategies in computer simulations so he can define the reality percieving strategy as correctly percieving whatever environment he simulates/determines. He calls them Monte Carlo simulations and refers to the models as a kind of evolutionary game theory.

This is the kind of stuff in his papers:

In this game, the external world has three territories, T1,T2,T3 and one resource, say food, that takes discrete values in the set V {1,2,...,m}

The paper survived peer-review so I'd like to think a fallacy that undermines the project would have been spotted by one of the experts.


Yes, and while I didn't go over the statistics in depth, the conclusions seem reasonable given his conditions. Monte Carlo simulations are a standard way to test a probabilistic scenario.

I would point out that given his definitions, our visual system, even as we know it physically, is a 'interface' system. For example, we do not pick up on the actual wavelengths of light to determine what we see. We have three color receptors and they do not distinguish physical situations: i.e, they do NOT pick up reality. They also do not pick up the 'simple' scenario as described in the papers. Our visual response is NOT monotone in the input. Furthermore, as he claims for an interface scenario, we *cannot* force ourselves to see the 'reality' because all we see is through our eyes.

So, I think he over-states his case in several different ways. While we do not see 'reality', nor even a 'homomorphic image' of reality, we do pick up a lot of information that does correspond to reality. Furthermore, we can build devices that show exactly how our visual system fails to show reality.

So, I disagree that 'physical reality' is simply icons. The way we fail to see reality is quite different.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
It was boring.
His interface model of perception and the idea of modelling the world mathematically as a network of conscious agents tickles me so badly. Anyone who finds this boring needs to see a doctor about getting their imagination jump started.
 

gnomon

Well-Known Member
His interface model of perception and the idea of modelling the world mathematically as a network of conscious agents tickles me so badly. Anyone who finds this boring needs to see a doctor about getting their imagination jump started.

Wow.......I've actually been diagnosed bipolar by two different doctors and spent some time in Ridgeview Hospital.

Yet you're thread is ****ing boring.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Wow.......I've actually been diagnosed bipolar by two different doctors and spent some time in Ridgeview Hospital.

Yet you're thread is ****ing boring.
Post some suggestions for my next topic and perhaps I'll do better to entertain you in future...
 
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