The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

[Dawnofhope]

When He returns it will be obvious.

That is what the Jews thought, but they misunderstood their own sacred texts and interpreted them literally.

Many signs in the sky predicted in Revelation will be fulfilled.

Like these verses. Of course Jesus is simply referring to Isaiah.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:29-30

I would argue the sun, moon, and stars refer to conditions within religion. They are not verses to be taken literally. Similarly the clouds are traditions and doctrine within religion that obscure the truth.

Teh Messianic prophecies not fulfilled at His first coming will be fulfilled and the Mt of olives will lbe split in two(Zech 14:4).

Jesus fulfilled this prophecy IMHO. The mountains are the Judaic and Christian covenants and their respective followers. The other verses in this chapter 1- 8 make sense in this context. Zechariah 14:9 refers to the second coming.

IMO the temple must also be rebuilt, but I have not decided f that is a reference to the literal temple of the spiritual temple or Christians---Christins arer the Temple of the temple of God(I Cor 3:13).

Jesus is the true temple (Revelations 21:22). Christians are temples when they have Christ in their hearts.

Then why worship Buddah?

The Baha'i manifestation is Baha'u'llah not Buddha. Following Buddhism makes us much sense as following Christianity. They are both ancient religions that have lost touch with the essence of their original teachings and can not provide the remedy the world needs today. Baha'u'llah's teachings address the problems of today. When you properly understand who Baha'u'llah is in regards to the Bible this becomes crystal clear.

Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[omega2xx]

That is what the Jews thought, but they misunderstood their own sacred texts and interpreted them literally.

Why do you think Christians have done the same thing?

Like these verses. Of course Jesus is simply referring to Isaiah.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:29-30[/QUOTE]

What Isaiah said was prophecy about the end times and relate directly to Revelation 6:12-14 & 8:12. Also Mt 12:31 is part o the context, which takes it out of the current time.

I would argue the sun, moon, and stars refer to conditions within religion. They are not verses to be taken literally. Similarly the clouds are traditions and doctrine within religion that obscure the truth.

I like the way you think, but in this case I think you are wrong. If you want to make it figurative, it would be an allegory and all Biblical allegories are based on literal events. This principle is taught in Gal 4:24.

If you want to make it figurative, we need to God back to Genesis: The light, the sun, is God. The lesser light, the moon, gets its light from the grater light. The literal moon has not light. It only reflects the light of the greater light. The stars are the angels of the churches(Rev 1:20). Light symbolizes many things. If we use Gen as the context, which I think is the best, light represents the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ(2 Cor 4:6).

Jesus fulfilled this prophecy IMHO. The mountains are the Judaic and Christian covenants and their respective followers. The other verses in this chapter 1- 8 make sense in this context. Zechariah 14:9 refers to the second coming.

Mountains usually symbolize governmental power and authority, and or the problems we face in the Christian life.

Jesus is the true temple (Revelations 21:22).

And Jn 2:19-21,

are temples when they have Christ in their hearts.

Right and God does not dwell in made with hands---2 Cor 5:1.

The Baha'i manifestation is Baha'u'llah not Buddha. Following Buddhism makes us much sense as following Christianity. They are both ancient religions that have lost touch with the essence of their original teachings and can not provide the remedy the world needs today. Baha'u'llah's teachings address the problems of today. When you properly understand who Baha'u'llah is in regards to the Bible this becomes crystal clear.

Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

Unless you properly understand Christianity, and you don't, you can't say we have lost touch with its original teachings. Baha'u'llah has nothing to do with Christianity and he certainly is not a prophet of God. He is not even a God, but the God of the Bible, Jehovah is the only true God, and the only one who can address problems of today. Especially in the spiritual realm.

I can understand why some will not accept that there is a living God today, but I do not understand why anyone would worship that which is not a God when there is One who can be worshiped. If you do not accept the God of the Bible for what the Bible claims about Him, why do you use the Bible, some which conflict with Bahai teachings, for your spiritual enlightment?

IMO, that is illogica.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why do you think Christians have done the same thing?

Because many Christians talk about apocalyptic scripture as if it were literally going to happen. Baha'is of course believe it has happened and that Baha'u'llah (literally translated means Glory of God) is none other than the Son Returned in the Glory of the Father.

Baha'u'llah made this very clear when He proclaimed to the Kings and Rulers of the world.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 5-7

Baha’u’llah Addresses Queen Victoria

Now you know the Baha'i position.

What Isaiah said was prophecy about the end times and relate directly to Revelation 6:12-14 & 8:12. Also Mt 12:31 is part o the context, which takes it out of the current time.

These are events that have already happened in regards to Islam and the Baha'i revelations.

I like the way you think, but in this case I think you are wrong. If you want to make it figurative, it would be an allegory and all Biblical allegories are based on literal events. This principle is taught in Gal 4:24.

I think you might be reading too much into that one verse as a basis for understanding all scripture.

If you want to make it figurative, we need to God back to Genesis: The light, the sun, is God. The lesser light, the moon, gets its light from the grater light. The literal moon has not light. It only reflects the light of the greater light. The stars are the angels of the churches(Rev 1:20). Light symbolizes many things. If we use Gen as the context, which I think is the best, light represents the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ(2 Cor 4:6).

That is useful to go back to genesis as these are verses not to be taken literally.

Mountains usually symbolize governmental power and authority, and or the problems we face in the Christian life.

Remember that the Jews expected their Messiah to rule on the throne of King David. However Jesus ruled on the Heavenly throne with His Father. Do you appreciate how one form of power can be a metaphor for the other?

Unless you properly understand Christianity, and you don't, you can't say we have lost touch with its original teachings. Baha'u'llah has nothing to do with Christianity and he certainly is not a prophet of God. He is not even a God, but the God of the Bible, Jehovah is the only true God, and the only one who can address problems of today. Especially in the spiritual realm.

Consider Nazi Germany. Hitler was elected. Nearly 95% of Germans at that time considered themselves Christian. Yet Christians and Churches both Catholic and Protestant were complicit in his rise to power and to some extent the extermination of 6 million Jews. There were exceptions of outstanding Christians of course. Christians have propagated anti-Semitism for centuries as well as propaganda and misinformation about other religions. The tragedy is Christians are their own worst enemies and much more bloodshed has come to Christians at the hands of other Christians. Christianity remains a divided body with each member claiming to represent true Christianity and casting scorn on the others. This demonstrates that the lights of the Christian Faith have become dimmed and if the stars are the Churches have they not fallen into disrepute?

I can understand why some will not accept that there is a living God today, but I do not understand why anyone would worship that which is not a God when there is One who can be worshiped. If you do not accept the God of the Bible for what the Bible claims about Him, why do you use the Bible, some which conflict with Bahai teachings, for your spiritual enlightment?

IMO, that is illogica.

When some of the Jews recognised Christ as their Messiah they followed Him. That did not mean they no longer believed in Moses. My ancestors were Christians as I once was. However because Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ then I follow Him. That does not diminish my love for Jesus, anymore than your Faith should affect your belief in Moses and the OT prophets. In fact they are complimentary and all part of Gods plan.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Muffled]

As a starting point I've included material posted on this thread earlier.

St Paul has written when speaking of the Jews and Gentiles:

" For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes." Romans 11:25-28

I have highlighted some of the key verses. We also have a sense of Gods plan for both the Jews and Gentiles.

This separation between Jews and the Gentiles has been clearly foretold in the prophetic references from Isaiah and Zechariah I provided you.

And Jesus indicated forgiveness towards those that would do harms as follows:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12:30-31

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots." Luke 23:34

We know of course the punishment the Jews and the fate of the Jews as they were deprived of the wisdom of their Messiah as they were to be dispersed after the destruction of their temple and Jerusalem and cast away from their homeland.

This punishment does not deny they are still Gods chosen people, but they were NOT cast into Hell.

They did after all still have the Mosaic Teachings in their midst, a Mighty Covenant sent by a Mighty God.

Within His teachings is the greatest commandment!

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:"

I believe the Jews will be the first as a Nation to recognise His second coming. That's another story.

I hope this helps. For one individual or a group to regards the other as damned has major problems for all sorts of reasons and is contrary to what Christ taught. HIs is a message of love and peace, is it not?

I believe the blindness keeps Jews from being saved and there is no statement as to what happens when the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. That simply may mean that time is up for them although I do believe it may open the eyes of the less stubborn.

I believe that conclusion does not follow from the verse listed. It may seem like Jacob means all Jews but it can mean some Jews as well. As for the second verse there is a covenant to take away sin but they reject it because it comes from Jesus.

I believe forgiveness is available through Jesus but Jews reject Jesus.

I don't believe anyone is until the final judgement.

I believe that is helpful but will not keep a person from Hell nor will it get one into the Kingdom of God.

That is a blanket statement. I believe some will.

However I believe I do not and usually Christians in general do not condemn everyone in that group but that does not mean that a large majority of that group will never find salvation and that may be sad but it is not a problem for the saved. We do what we can.

I believe there is no evidence to support that.

I believe it is through Him.

 

[omega2xx]

Because many Christians talk about apocalyptic scripture as if it were literally going to happen. Baha'is of course believe it has happened and that Baha'u'llah (literally translated means Glory of God) is none other than the Son Returned in the Glory of the Father.

Baha'u'llah made this very clear when He proclaimed to the Kings and Rulers of the world.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 83-86

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 5-7

Baha’u’llah Addresses Queen Victoria

Now you know the Baha'i position.

Thanks but since it contradicts God's information, I reject it.

These are events that have already happened in regards to Islam and the Baha'i revelations.

The prophecies of Reevelation have not happened yet and they are the only ones that count.

I think you might be reading too much into that one verse as a basis for understanding all scripture

I think you do not understand the verse at all.

That is useful to go back to genesis as these are verses not to be taken literally.

What qualifies you to determine what is literal and what isw not? I Jehovah omnipotent or not?

Remember that the Jews expected their Messiah to rule on the throne of King David. However Jesus ruled on the Heavenly throne with His Father. Do you appreciate how one form of power can be a metaphor for the other?

Do you understand the world has not come to an end yet. Do you understand the second coming of Christ?

Consider Nazi Germany. Hitler was elected. Nearly 95% of Germans at that time considered themselves Christian. Yet Christians and Churches both Catholic and Protestant were complicit in his rise to power and to some extent the extermination of 6 million Jews. There were exceptions of outstanding Christians of course. Christians have propagated anti-Semitism for centuries as well as propaganda and misinformation about other religions. The tragedy is Christians are their own worst enemies and much more bloodshed has come to Christians at the hands of other Christians. Christianity remains a divided body with each member claiming to represent true Christianity and casting scorn on the others. This demonstrates that the lights of the Christian Faith have become dimmed and if the stars are the Churches have they not fallen into disrepute?

Claiming to be a Christians does not make one a Christian. You have no way of know the onews you are referring to were actually Christians.

When some of the Jews recognised Christ as their Messiah they followed Him. That did not mean they no longer believed in Moses. My ancestors were Christians as I once was. However because Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ then I follow Him. That does not diminish my love for Jesus, anymore than your Faith should affect your belief in Moses and the OT prophets. In fact they are complimentary and all part of Gods plan.

Hope that makes sense.

Since it is not Biblical, it makes no sense to me. Loving Jesus does not make one a Christians. Making Him our Lord and Savior is what is needed. The Bible say in the end times there will be false Christ. If Baha'u'llah claims to be the retur4n of Christ, that fulfills that Biblical prophecy.

 

[Muffled]

A term often used by fundamentalists against other Christians.

I believe it comes from this verse:
II Thes. 2:3 ¶ let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition,

I believe apostasy is a falling away from the faith. Not simply a disagreement about some aspects of it but to pretty much renounce the true meaning of Christianity.

 

[Muffled]

When the Bible says the Word was with God from the beginning it is referring to all the Manifestations of God including Krishna, Moses, Christ and the Fatyer, Baha'u'llah, Who was the One spoken of by Christ.

I do not believe that Krishna, Moses, Fatyer, Baha'u'llah or Mohammed were manifestations of God.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus spoke of his Father as "the only true God." (John 17:3) It makes sense to me that if there is a true God, the other gods being worshipped are false gods. It also seems logical that the true God would reveal himself and his purposes to his worshippers, giving them directions as to how to worship him acceptably. (John 4:23,24) To have God's favor, I believe we must know the truth about God and Jesus, and practice it. Concerning Jesus, Acts 4:12 says; "there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved." While God never has and never will torment people in hellfire, I believe he will hold each of us accountable for what we do or fail to do. (Hebrews 4:13)

I believe scripture says that people will be sent to Hell. However God does not torment people there but they can be tormented by the fact that they are there and the memory of their sins.

 

[pearl]

I believe apostasy is a falling away from the faith. Not simply a disagreement about some aspects of it but to pretty much renounce the true meaning of Christianity.

True. The problem is the differing interpretations of 'true meaning of Christianity.' It is clear from the Gospel that 'Jesus grew in stature and wisdom.' Our stature is defined genetically, but we may choose to close off growth in wisdom. Ideally, we ought to apply Jesus' teaching to the needs of the communities of our day, just as did the evangelists when they penned their Gospel.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I do not believe that Krishna, Moses, Fatyer, Baha'u'llah or Mohammed were manifestations of God.

That's perfectly all right. Only that the Bible does not say that any of these are not true. There are symbolic prophecies of Muhammad the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the Book of Revelation and in the Old Testament that may be of interest to you.

Thanks for your comment. Anyway, for the record we believe in Jesus as the Lord and the Bible as the Word of God.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Yes, busted

It certainly is enormously satisfying turning Christian fundamentalism on its head. Examining core beliefs based on scripture, finding them wanting, and lo and behold...a better way!

But nonetheless WRONG.

Christianity has been around long enough and sadly lost its capacity to adapt to the modern world. Its been an easy starting point on this forum.

TRUTH doesn't adapt it remains solid in a sure foundation.

I am starting more explicitly Baha'i threads and testing the waters. If my beloved path really does have something to offer the world then it should be easy. As a modern religion that has been born out of the fiercest persecution from the Persians and Ottomans it should withstand the onslaught of anyone who wishes to oppose.

If true it would be the main religion throughout the world would it not? Why is it that Christ and the true and only God is the one nearly all religions centre around? Could it be copycats are not reality but shadow the real thing?

I've realised one of the greatest strengths of the Baha'i Faith is that most of the main principals are already widely accepted. So its is those such as yourself who are better promoters of the Baha'i teachings than I ever will be.

Bring it on. That's all I can say

Best Wishes

Christianity isn't based on principals... it is based on TRUTH the living WORD of a Living God. Do you think that is why the Bahai is a mere shadow reflecting some of the TRUTHS from the ONLY true God?

 

[CG Didymus]

...When some of the Jews recognised Christ as their Messiah they followed Him. That did not mean they no longer believed in Moses. My ancestors were Christians as I once was. However because Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ then I follow Him. That does not diminish my love for Jesus, anymore than your Faith should affect your belief in Moses and the OT prophets. In fact they are complimentary and all part of Gods plan...

Hey Adrian009; You've handled some pretty tough questions, but we've been too easy on you. The Christian Bible is presented to us as one continuous message from the One True God. If explains how the children of Israel come to be and how God made them His chosen people.

They had many great spiritual leaders. Moses was the main one, but they had a lot. They all played a significant role in getting the Jews to where they were in the time of Jesus. Baha'is call Moses a "manifestation", but Moses in the Bible was just a man and made many mistakes in his lifetime. I heard some Baha'is say Abraham was also a "manifestation"? But still, he was just a man. David is huge in Judaism, but by what he did, obviously, he was just a man.

Jesus is presented in the Christian Bible as more the a man but as some kind of God/man. The Christian Bible says He was sinless. He had the power and authority to forgive sins. If the Christian Bible is true, then Jesus is somehow greater. So great the Christians figured that he must be God Himself. He then claims He will return. There is a problem.

Not only do Baha'is have to some how fit other "manifestations" into the succession that came before Jesus, but what about the three that came after? Most of the talk is how Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, but shouldn't Mohammad be the one? And then you say the Bab was a "manifestation"? Why does he need to be? Why couldn't he just be the forerunner and leave it at that? But since you do say the Bab was a "manifestation" then who is he the return of? Jesus? Mohammad? Zoroaster? Buddha?

And speaking of Buddha, how does he tie in with the Abrahamic religions? And then you have Krishna and the other Hindu incarnations of God, they are in a succession that fits within the Hindu teachings. But into Judaism and Christianity? You have to allegorize, compromise, and simplify everything in the different religions to somehow make them all appear as if they are from one source... the One True God.

Another thing I was thinking about is how Baha'i say these prophets came to bring an ever "advancing" civilization? But I was wondering, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Chinese... all had great civilizations... who was their "manifestation"? Who was their God? Zeus? Or what ever the other mythical gods were named. Oh, did I say mythical? Yes. The religions of these great civilizations were based on myth weren't they? Nothing real. Only fantasy that explained how things came to be. Why they are like they are. And why people need to believe. False, fake, made up stuff to get people to follow the rules of the land.

Why aren't the "manifestations" of those religions not included? They helped civilize a people? Many say that some of those myths made it into or at least influenced the "real" God-given religions. And that gets us back to the OP... is the exclusivity of Jesus a myth... or is the story of Jesus and all religions mixed in with some myth. But that can't be, because that would make Baha'u'llah the return of a myth.

Ah yes, the Baha's give us "science and reason." Did Jesus walk on water? No, physically impossible. Water to wine? No. unless he had grape concentrate and dumped it into a barrel of water. Like your other thread, rise from the dead? Impossible, he would have been brain dead and stiff as a board by then. But then we got Lazarus and some kid that Jesus brought back to life? Myth, can't happen.

The Jewish Bible stories: Creation? Myth. Flood? More myth. Crossing rivers and seas on dry land? Yeah, right... myth. Elijah being carried off on a fiery chariot? Either UFO's or a myth. Jonah? Supposedly people have survived for several days in fish or whales? Yeah, prove it. Walls of Jericho tumbling down? Earthquake or myth, but probably myth.

So do religions have similarities? Yes. Do they have things that help people live better, more spiritual lives? Yes. Do they have conflicting and contradictory explanations of things? Yes. Can people manipulate and interpret religious writings several ways? Yes. So do we know anything for sure? No. It's all what a person chooses to believe. Does the Baha'i Faith offer reasonable answers to make the world a better place? Yes. Does Christianity? No, they think the world is a horrible, sinful place that is going to get burned up. They only thing they offer is a path to God to bypass all the suffering and turmoil of the world... and then, it's only after they die, or get "taken up" to heaven bodily. Oh yeah, the "rapture"? That's gotta be myth. What's the Baha'i allegory to that?

 

[metis]

Christianity isn't based on principals... it is based on TRUTH the living WORD of a Living God

The above is a belief, not necessarily a fact, and it's very important to recognize the difference between the two.

 

[RESOLUTION]

The above is a belief, not necessarily a fact, and it's very important to recognize the difference between the two.

That is your opinion but until you can prove God does not exist or his word is false then you have no other option to accept the fact you are probably wrong due to lack of personal experience and knowledge of God and the bible, on your part.

 

[metis]

That is your opinion but until you can prove God does not exist or his word is false then you have no other option to accept the fact you are probably wrong due to lack of personal experience and knowledge of God and the bible, on your part.

It is those who claim X exists that have the burden to show that X indeed does exist-- not the other way around.

"Fact" and "belief" are not synonymous concepts.

 

[RESOLUTION]

It is those who claim X exists that have the burden to show that X indeed does exist-- not the other way around.

Fallacy. No burden of proof is required, demanded or necessary for the unbeliever.

I shall show you why....

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.

The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need You. We're at the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, we don't need you here anymore, you can go your way "

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest?"

To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!"

But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."

The scientist said, "Sure, no problem," and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God looked at him and said, "No, no! You go get your own dirt!"

When you can create the soil you can ask for proof.

"Fact" and "belief" are not synonymous concepts.

I guess you it depends to what you apply the above to. I will give GOD and ask you to apply that.

You see it is a FACT and a TRUTH that people believe in GOD.

 

[Dawnofhope]

TRUTH doesn't adapt it remains solid in a sure foundation.

It depends on what you call truth. If its 'my religion is right and your religion is wrong' then that's a foundation for disunity and division.

Most of the real truths of Christianity are present in all the main religions.

If true it would be the main religion throughout the world would it not? Why is it that Christ and the true and only God is the one nearly all religions centre around? Could it be copycats are not reality but shadow the real thing?

Christianity is 2,000 years old, the Baha'i Faith is 170 years old. Check this out.

Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The rate growth of the Baha'i Faith in the last 100 years 1.72%
The growth of Christianity 1.31%

The Baha'i faith must be the real thing after all according to your standards.

Christianity isn't based on principals... it is based on TRUTH the living WORD of a Living God. Do you think that is why the Bahai is a mere shadow reflecting some of the TRUTHS from the ONLY true God?

In my profession we have the Hippocratic Oath "Do no harm".

 

[Dawnofhope]

They had many great spiritual leaders. Moses was the main one, but they had a lot. They all played a significant role in getting the Jews to where they were in the time of Jesus. Baha'is call Moses a "manifestation", but Moses in the Bible was just a man and made many mistakes in his lifetime. I heard some Baha'is say Abraham was also a "manifestation"? But still, he was just a man. David is huge in Judaism, but by what he did, obviously, he was just a man.

I don't think many would object to seeing the OT prophets as coming under the shadow of Moses. Moses was the friends of God and through Him the laws were revealed. He freed His people from the captivity of the Egyptians and the laws provided the basis for the Hebrew people/civilisation that reached its greatest heights under King David.

Jesus may have been 'sinless' but He became very angry and caused a disruption at the temple. He was the 'son of man' as well as the 'Son of God'. When He called out "Why hast Thou forsaken Me" on the cross that was a very human emotion. What mistakes were you thinking about Moses? His killing of an Egyptian is the most often cited. God certainly went on to kill many more Egyptians if the story is to be taken at face value. The whole incident lead to the Hebrew people fleeing the land of Egypt. Maybe if it really did happen God allowed it for a reason.

In regards to the Manifestations of God, I'll provide some more light reading for you.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 151-153

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 154-156

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 146-150

Jesus is presented in the Christian Bible as more the a man but as some kind of God/man. The Christian Bible says He was sinless. He had the power and authority to forgive sins. If the Christian Bible is true, then Jesus is somehow greater. So great the Christians figured that he must be God Himself. He then claims He will return. There is a problem.

In regards to the return of Christ, the best NT example is John the Baptists being the return of Elijah. John the Baptist was a spiritual, not physical incarnation of Elijah. Put another way Elijah does not physically return but the spirit of Elijah as John the Baptist does.

In Malachi 4:5-6, God announced that He would send “Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.” In Luke 1:17, the angel Gabriel told Zacharias, John’s father, that John would fulfil Malachi 4:6, stating that he would go before the Lord “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” Jesus identified John as Elijah (Matthew 11:14;17:10-13; Mark 9:11-13). However, when asked by the priests and Levites if he were Elijah, John denied it (John 1:21)!

The significance is that John the Baptist had a similar role and purpose to Elijah with similar spiritual qualities. Likewise the returned Christ or Messiah is not the same physical Jesus. The wonders and signs accompanying His return were not too dissimilar to those that accompanied Jesus.

Not only do Baha'is have to some how fit other "manifestations" into the succession that came before Jesus, but what about the three that came after? Most of the talk is how Baha'u'llah is the return of Christ, but shouldn't Mohammad be the one? And then you say the Bab was a "manifestation"? Why does he need to be? Why couldn't he just be the forerunner and leave it at that? But since you do say the Bab was a "manifestation" then who is he the return of? Jesus? Mohammad? Zoroaster? Buddha?

Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah because they were all Manifestations that came after Jesus could rightly be called the Return of Christ. Baha'u'llah being the most recent is the most relevant. So the next time a Christians ask you about the return of Christ you could legitimately say He has returned three times already! I don't think this good news will be well received though. Zoroaster and Buddha came before so it doesn't make sense to use that term for them.

And speaking of Buddha, how does he tie in with the Abrahamic religions? And then you have Krishna and the other Hindu incarnations of God, they are in a succession that fits within the Hindu teachings. But into Judaism and Christianity? You have to allegorize, compromise, and simplify everything in the different religions to somehow make them all appear as if they are from one source... the One True God.

Krishna, Buddha, and Zoroaster are not clearly part of the Abrahamic Faiths. Although Zoroaster is monotheistic, Hinduism is generally considered polytheistic, and Buddhism atheistic. However it is unclear whether we really have their original teachings so its hard to know what they taught. Buddhism is the one that I'm most familiar with and the available texts could be seen similarly to the Baha'i Faith though the Buddhists being a diverse group will have many opinions. some in harmony and others contradictory to the Baha'i view.

I posted this recently in another thread:

There is a real problem with the so called authority and authenticity of Buddhist scriptures that even some Buddhists would agree with. Looking specifically at known Buddhists texts

Prophet is a term the Baha'is would apply to the Old Testament prophets after Moses and before Christ, Isaiah being the greatest of the Hebrew prophets. Although Baha'is consider Moses, Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, Krishna, and Buddha as having prophetic powers they are much more than that. They are considered manifestations of an unknowable essence called God. What does Baha'u'llah say about God?

"To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress.... He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence.."
Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah

May there be a similarity here with the words of Buddha? I tend to look to what the Buddha may have said to understand HIs message.

“There is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, this Unoriginated, this Uncreated, this Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible.
But since there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, therefore is escape possible from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed. "
~ Udana, Buddha

What is a prophet anyhow, other than one who speaks knowingly of the future?

"At that period, brethren, there will arise in the world an Exalted. One named Metteyya, Arahat, Fully Awakened, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, an Exalted One, a Buddha, even as I am now...
...He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see, as it were face to face, this universe, with Its worlds of the spirits, Its Brahmas and Its Maras, and Its world of recluses and Brahmins, of princes and peoples, even as I now, by myself, thoroughly know and see them." Digha Nikaya Buddha

Baha'u'llah early in His mission spent two years of His life in relative seclusion during which time He conversed with the Sufis, a mystical sect of Islam. This lead to His first work "The seven, and four valleys". Even a cursory review of the text will reveal that His writings are profound and mystical. They will not fit into any stereotype of an Abrahamic Religion.

http://www.bahai.org/library/author...lleys/seven-valleys-four-valleys.pdf?0e05daed

For example:

"Love accepteth no existence and wisheth no life: He seeth life in death, and in shame seeketh glory. To merit the madness of love, man must abound in sanity; to merit the bonds of the Friend, he must be full of spirit. Blessed the neck that is caught in His noose, happy the head that falleth on the dust in the pathway of His love. Wherefore, O friend, give up thy self that thou mayest find the Peerless One, pass by this mortal earth that thou mayest seek a home in the nest of heaven. Be as naught, if thou wouldst kindle the fire of being and be fit for the pathway of love."

 

[Dawnofhope]

Another thing I was thinking about is how Baha'i say these prophets came to bring an ever "advancing" civilization? But I was wondering, the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Chinese... all had great civilizations... who was their "manifestation"? Who was their God? Zeus? Or what ever the other mythical gods were named. Oh, did I say mythical? Yes. The religions of these great civilizations were based on myth weren't they? Nothing real. Only fantasy that explained how things came to be. Why they are like they are. And why people need to believe. False, fake, made up stuff to get people to follow the rules of the land.

In regards to ancient religions and traditions:

"just as the rays of the natural sun have an influence which penetrates into the darkest and shadiest corners of the world, giving warmth and life even to creatures that have never seen the sun itself, so also, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the Manifestation of God influences the lives of all, and inspires receptive minds even in places and among peoples where the name of the Prophet is quite unknown."

(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha'u'llah and the New Era, p. 4)

Why aren't the "manifestations" of those religions not included? They helped civilize a people? Many say that some of those myths made it into or at least influenced the "real" God-given religions. And that gets us back to the OP... is the exclusivity of Jesus a myth... or is the story of Jesus and all religions mixed in with some myth. But that can't be, because that would make Baha'u'llah the return of a myth.

We have wise people, extraordinary humans and prophets that would also have profound influence, but not to the same degree as the Manifestations.

Ah yes, the Baha's give us "science and reason." Did Jesus walk on water? No, physically impossible. Water to wine? No. unless he had grape concentrate and dumped it into a barrel of water. Like your other thread, rise from the dead? Impossible, he would have been brain dead and stiff as a board by then. But then we got Lazarus and some kid that Jesus brought back to life? Myth, can't happen.

I hope I've answered this for you on the other thread.

The Jewish Bible stories: Creation? Myth. Flood? More myth. Crossing rivers and seas on dry land? Yeah, right... myth. Elijah being carried off on a fiery chariot? Either UFO's or a myth. Jonah? Supposedly people have survived for several days in fish or whales? Yeah, prove it. Walls of Jericho tumbling down? Earthquake or myth, but probably myth.

Love the humour. We weren't there so we can't know for sure either way. Creation in 6 days 6,000 has overwhelming evidence against it even considering the power of an Omnipotent, All-powerful God.

So do religions have similarities? Yes. Do they have things that help people live better, more spiritual lives? Yes. Do they have conflicting and contradictory explanations of things? Yes. Can people manipulate and interpret religious writings several ways? Yes. So do we know anything for sure? No. It's all what a person chooses to believe. Does the Baha'i Faith offer reasonable answers to make the world a better place? Yes. Does Christianity? No, they think the world is a horrible, sinful place that is going to get burned up. They only thing they offer is a path to God to bypass all the suffering and turmoil of the world... and then, it's only after they die, or get "taken up" to heaven bodily. Oh yeah, the "rapture"? That's gotta be myth. What's the Baha'i allegory to that?

You are sounding more like a Baha'i today than a Christian

The rapture is probably like the true meaning of resurrection. There are those who will be lifted up into the heaven of true understanding as their thoughts and actions are illuminated by the Manifestation of God for this day...that is Baha'u'llah of course

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks but since it contradicts God's information, I reject it.

That's how the Jews felt about Christ.

The prophecies of Reevelation have not happened yet and they are the only ones that count.

That's how the Jews understood their scripture when Christ came.

What qualifies you to determine what is literal and what isw not? I Jehovah omnipotent or not?

Jehovah is Omnipotent. I regard the Baha'i scripture as you regard the bible. The last book in the bible was written over 1900 years ago. I have the updated version. That's where my authority comes from.

Do you understand the world has not come to an end yet. Do you understand the second coming of Christ?

Its the end of an era, not the end of the world. The signs that accompanied the end of the era for the Jews in Matthew 24 are the same that are accompanying the end of the Christian era now.

In regards to the return of Christ, the best NT example is John the Baptists being the return of Elijah. John the Baptist was a spiritual, not physical incarnation of Elijah. Put another way Elijah does not physically return but the spirit of Elijah as John the Baptist does.

In Malachi 4:5-6, God announced that He would send “Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.” In Luke 1:17, the angel Gabriel told Zacharias, John’s father, that John would fulfil Malachi 4:6, stating that he would go before the Lord “in the spirit and power of Elijah.” Jesus identified John as Elijah (Matthew 11:14;17:10-13; Mark 9:11-13). However, when asked by the priests and Levites if he were Elijah, John denied it (John 1:21)!

The significance is that John the Baptist had a similar role and purpose to Elijah with similar spiritual qualities. Likewise the returned Christ or Messiah is not the same physical Jesus. The wonders and signs accompanying His return were not too dissimilar to those that accompanied Jesus.

Claiming to be a Christians does not make one a Christian. You have no way of know the onews you are referring to were actually Christians.

How do we know who's really a Christian. The same way we know the true prophet.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Matthew 7:15-20

As to the fruits St Paul in Galatians speaks:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
Galatians 5:22-23

Since it is not Biblical, it makes no sense to me. Loving Jesus does not make one a Christians. Making Him our Lord and Savior is what is needed. The Bible say in the end times there will be false Christ. If Baha'u'llah claims to be the retur4n of Christ, that fulfills that Biblical prophecy.

Like these verses for example?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

You wanted to know why I am a Baha'i and not a Christian. I think I have answered your question.