The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

[omega2xx]

What makes you think that when someone dies they go to heaven? Never understand that one...

i know some peole go to heaven when the die the same way little children know Jesus loves them---the Bible tells me so.

Is there a verse that says, "when you die you go to heaven"? Then you must believe in an immortal soul?

There are many. Jesus ascended into heave after His resurrection(Acts 1:11) Paul went to the 3rd heaven(2 Cor 12"2.) There will be so many in heaven, they cant be counted(Rev 7:9) The Bible says the soul that sins shall die, do i am not sre it is immortal. when one dies their spirit returns to God who gave it(Eccl 12:7) so I believe it is immortal

I'm trying to look at Jesus's life and what he taught. Don't see heaven going there at all. What I do see is, waiting for the resurrection. Just curious.......

Good for you. Keep reading, you will find what you are looking for. Jesus said He was going away to prepare a place for us. Where do you think that would be?

 

[RESOLUTION]

One in spirit

Which makes God the Father, Jesus all one as we are one in Spirit. But I was referring to the 2 become 1 as two humans who marry.

 

[omega2xx]

Which makes God the Father, Jesus all one as we are one in Spirit. But I was referring to the 2 become 1 as two humans who marry.

IMO, that is a spiritual truth, not a literal one. My wife and I did not agree 100% in some areas but we were on in spirit in the overall truth of the Bible. We both agreed 100% that all of the Bible was God's inspired, inerrant and infallible word.

 

[metis]

Jas.2
[13] For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.
[14]What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
[16] and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[18]But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?

 

[moorea944]

i know some peole go to heaven when the die the same way little children know Jesus loves them---the Bible tells me so.



There are many. Jesus ascended into heave after His resurrection(Acts 1:11) Paul went to the 3rd heaven(2 Cor 12"2.) There will be so many in heaven, they cant be counted(Rev 7:9) The Bible says the soul that sins shall die, do i am not sre it is immortal. when one dies their spirit returns to God who gave it(Eccl 12:7) so I believe it is immortal



Good for you. Keep reading, you will find what you are looking for. Jesus said He was going away to prepare a place for us. Where do you think that would be?

i know some people go to heaven when they die the same way little children know Jesus loves them---the Bible tells me so.

So your assuming we go to heaven? Plus, your still not giving me a verse that says that we go to heaven.

There are many.

Can you show me one that says that when we die we go to heaven? You still haven't done that yet.

Jesus ascended into heave after His resurrection(Acts 1:11)

That has nothing to do with us going to heaven. Read Heb 9

Paul went to the 3rd heaven(2 Cor 12"2.)

Paul had a glimpse of the ultimate glory that awaits the accepted servant of Yahweh . His glimpse into the future was beyond the kingdom period. We live in the first heaven (dispensation); the kingdom period is the second heaven; and the time when there will be true God-manifestation (1Cor 15:28) is the third heaven.

There is no real "third" heaven. There is only heaven. Scirpture also tells us that no one has ever gone to heaven, only Jesus......... something to think about....

There will be so many in heaven, they cant be counted(Rev 7:9)

Your assuming again that it is in heaven. Have you ever really read Revelation? Read Dan 2 also. They go together.

The Bible says the soul that sins shall die, do i am not sre it is immortal.

Well, if it dies, then it is not immortal. It would be mortal. "Soul" is talking about a person. A person that sins shall die.

when one dies their spirit returns to God who gave it(Eccl 12:7) so I believe it is immortal

We have to remember that we are reading English bibles. What does the word "soul' and "spirit" mean in Hebrew and Greek? Spirit in Eccl 12 is "breathe". Not some immortal soul type of thing that goes out of the body at death.

"Soul" means, someone who is alive, a living, breathing person. That's all. Nowhere in the bible to you find "immortal" and "soul" together. Why? If it is such an important doctrine to "main stream" Christianity, why can we ever find that in scripture.

Jesus said He was going away to prepare a place for us. Where do you think that would be?

Have you ever read all of those verses? God's house is a spiritual one in which are many abiding places look at Peter 2
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Your missing that verse that tells us that Jesus is coming back, to earth. Look at all of the prophet books in the OT. Do you know what they are about? The restoration of Israel and the coming kingdom being set up on earth.

Peter was promised a place on the earth, not in heaven. "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them . . . when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:27, 28). Jesus will sit in his throne at Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32,33) when he returns. (See also Matt. 25:31,32).

Look at the Lord's prayer. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth....."

If Jesus is coming back, why would you want to be in heaven? Plus, there is NO verse in scripture that tells us that we go to heaven. He comes down to us and stays. He will "set up" Dan 2, and will rule from Jerusalem.

 

[omega2xx]

So your assuming we go to heaven? Plus, your still not giving me a verse that says that we go to heaven.

Can you show me one that says that when we die we go to heaven? You still haven't done that yet.

I can, but I am not going to waste my time doing it. If you don't believe we go to heaven or to hell when we die, that is fine with me. What I will do is if you will tell me where we go when we die, I will give you a verse or 2 or 3 that says we go to heaven or to hell.

That has nothing to do with us going to heaven. Read Heb 9

It does if you understand it and Heb 9 is not about heaven.

]Paul had a glimpse of the ultimate glory that awaits the accepted servant of Yahweh . His glimpse into the future was beyond the kingdom period. We live in the first heaven (dispensation); the kingdom period is the second heaven; and the time when there will be true God-manifestation (1Cor 15:28) is the third heaven.

To bad you can't support that fairy tale with some Scripture. I Cor 15:28 certainly does not support it.

There is no real "third" heaven. There is only heaven. Scripture also tells us that no one has ever gone to heaven, only Jesus......... something to think about....

If the Bible says there is a third heaven, why should I believe you?

Your assuming again that it is in heaven.

You are assuming it is not heaven.

Have you ever really read Revelation? Read Dan 2 also. They go together.

Read, studied and taught them. What is your point? Have you only read them?
Well, if it dies, then it is not immortal. It would be mortal. "Soul" is talking about a person. A person that sins shall die.

We have to remember that we are reading English bibles. What does the word "soul' and "spirit" mean in Hebrew and Greek? Spirit in Eccl 12 is "breathe". Not some immortal soul type of thing that goes out of the body at death.

Keep 2 things in mind. Those who translate Bibles know the language better than you do. Man is body, soul and spirit. Soul and spirit are different. The soul gives us self-consciousness; the spirit gives us God consciousness God dwells in the spirit, self dwells in the soul and our senses dwell in the body.

If you want some good teaching on body, soul and spirit, try "The Spiritual man," by Watchman Nee.

]"Soul"

means, someone who is alive, a living, breathing person. That's all.

Not true. Everyone living has a soul, it is part of the IMAGE God created in man.

Nowhere in the bible to you find "immortal" and "soul" together. Why? If it is such an important doctrine to "main stream" Christianity, why can we ever find that in scripture.

WE don't teach that the soul is immortal---the soul that sins shall die(Ezk 18:4). We teach the spirit is immortal. It returns to God when we die(Eccl 12:7). Make sure you know what I believe before you tell me what I believe.

Have you ever read all of those verses? God's house is a spiritual one in which are many abiding places look at Peter 2. "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

A spiritual house can also be a literal house.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Your missing that verse that tells us that Jesus is coming back, to earth. Look at all of the prophet books in the OT. Do you know what they are about? The restoration of Israel and the coming kingdom being set up on earth.

Peter was promised a place on the earth, not in heaven. "Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them . . . when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matt. 19:27, 28). Jesus will sit in his throne at Jerusalem (Lk. 1:32,33) when he returns. (See also Matt. 25:31,32).

Jesus' throne is in the "new Jerusalem" which is heaven, When this age comes to an end, the current heavens and earth will be destroyed---Behold all lthings are new.

Look at the Lord's prayer. "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth....."[

That refers to the present time. It is something Christians desire now

If Jesus is coming back, why would you want to be in heaven? Plus, there is NO verse in scripture that tells us that we go to heaven. He comes down to us and stays. He will "set up" Dan 2, and will rule from Jerusalem.

From the new Jerusalem in heaven, not even on the new earth.

 

[Dawnofhope]

WE don't get into heaven by what we do, we get into heaven by what we believe.


Cynicism and skepticism are the crudest form of quasi-intellectualism... Let the cynic become cynical of his cynicism and the skeptic skeptical of his skepticism and join the battle. R.C. Sproul

So a person who believes in Jesus as you do yet sexually violates children makes it to heaven, and the one who does tick all your boxes and lives a good life goes to hell?

 

[omega2xx]

So a person who believes in Jesus as you do yet sexually violates children makes it to heaven, and the one who does tick all your boxes and lives a good life goes to hell?

You will probably take my answer as an insult but it it not given that way.

Your response is the same nonsense I always get when I say salvation is by grace alone. One who has truly been born again, is not going to sexually violate children. That is an absurd concept.

No one checks all the boxes---ALL have sinned---there is none righteous, not even one.

The Bible is very clear that salvation is dependent on faith in Jesus not on works.

Why do you reject a theology clearly taught in the Bible? IMO, you need to accept it or quit using the Bible for your theology. It is illogical to use writings you reject to find the truth and certainly you are not suggesting you are omniscient and can tell which Scripture are valid and which are not.

There are some Scriptures i struggle with, but not as many as there use to be. When I get to heaven and Jesus explains them to me I will smack my forehead with the palm of my hand and say "how simple, why didn't i see that while on earth.



"Faith is a sounder guide than reason. Reason can go only so far, but faith has no limits."
- Blaise Pascal

 

[Dawnofhope]

You will probably take my answer as an insult but it it not given that way.

Your response is the same nonsense I always get when I say salvation is by grace alone. One who has truly been born again, is not going to sexually violate children. That is an absurd concept.

No one checks all the boxes---ALL have sinned---there is none righteous, not even one.

The Bible is very clear that salvation is dependent on faith in Jesus not on works.

Why do you reject a theology clearly taught in the Bible? IMO, you need to accept it or quit using the Bible for your theology. It is illogical to use writings you reject to find the truth and certainly you are not suggesting you are omniscient and can tell which Scripture are valid and which are not.

There are some Scriptures i struggle with, but not as many as there use to be. When I get to heaven and Jesus explains them to me I will smack my forehead with the palm of my hand and say "how simple, why didn't i see that while on earth.



"Faith is a sounder guide than reason. Reason can go only so far, but faith has no limits."
- Blaise Pascal

I don't get insulted easily. I believe in giving no offence and taking no offence. I would humbly suggest some work on communication style could minimise the risk of giving offence, while still making a point. I know I over step the mark at times too.

There are numerous NT scriptures that highlight the need for both faith and deeds. Faith without deeds is dead from the book of James for example.

Jesus's most severe criticism was reserved for the religious leaders of His day whom He viewed as hypocritical. The cup that is clean on the outside and dirty He said in regard to the Pharisees.

I've seen a rich abundance of hypocrisy from so called born again Christians over the years. The example I gave is a real one. A leader of the Christian Heritage party in New Zealand for example who all the born again Christians thought was wonderful. He's currently in prison where he belongs.

Christian Heritage Party of New Zealand - Wikipedia

The world is weary of words. Now is the time for deeds.

 

[omega2xx]

I don't get insulted easily. I believe in giving no offence and taking no offence. I would humbly suggest some work on communication style could minimise the risk of giving offence, while still making a point. I know I over step the mark at times too.

There are numerous NT scriptures that highlight the need for both faith and deeds. Faith without deeds is dead from the book of James for example.

That is the classic example and it is the only one and it does not teach works + faith + salvation if understood properly.

Jesus's most severe criticism was reserved for the religious leaders of His day whom He viewed as hypocritical. The cup that is clean on the outside and dirty He said in regard to the Pharisees. First we are not saved by our faith. We are saved by the grace of God and the object of our faith. Faith is only as good as the object of it.

Look at the rhetorical question James asks in 2:14 -- can a faith without works save? If one doe snot have works, they do not have saving faith. It is not the works that saves, the faith is what cause the person to do the good works---no works, no saving faith.

If you check the 2 examples James gives as examples of works(2:23-25), they are given as examples of faith in Heb 11:17 &3.

I've seen a rich abundance of hypocrisy from so called born again Christians over the years. The example I gave is a real one. A leader of the Christian Heritage party in New Zealand for example who all the born again Christians thought was wonderful. He's currently in prison where he belongs.

The hypocrisy is you calling him a Christian when you don't know for sure. We are frequently warned about false teaches in the Bible. Are you also suggesting that no one claiming to be Bahai, has never done anything against the religion he/she professes? Have you never broken the rules of your religion. Most Christians will admit they still sin.
Christian Heritage Party of New Zealand - Wikipedia

The world is weary of words. Now is the time for deeds.

Are you suggesting that Christians do not do good works? As the lights of the world we are to let our light shine that men may see our GOOD WORKS and glorify our Father in heaven. We take that as serious and you take any of your teachings.

 

[Bick]

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Some people will interpret that verse in a literal sense, that only by accepting Jesus and using him as the intermediary or savior, will they get to God.

Others (myself included) understand that what Jesus meant was "but by me = by my teachings." In other words, living according to what is written about the laws found in the OT. That is also why Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

The Law refers to the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible. The Prophets refers to the books named after the major/minor prophets of the OT (like Isaiah). Jesus is saying to live according to the Word.

No where in the Bible do you find anything about having to accept Jesus into your heart. That is merely ceremonial. Most Christians run into the problem of having to read the Bible in their native language (English for most) and don't understand Koine Greek (NT language). They rely on translation X, and those are subject to biases of the translation teams working for publishing houses or religious organizations.

Having said all of that, it is fine for Christians to believe their way is the right way, if they live a moral life and follow the Word. It does not mean that they are right, but no harm = no foul. However, I personally do not think that their way is the only way for a variety of reasons. The Cosmic Theology thread (last paragraph) in the Deism DIR goes over "why".

 

[McBell]

Actually what it means is that the Father and Son are of a like mind; on the same page; in sync.

I have to ask what you think Kemosloby meant in the post you replied to with this.

Cause you above quoted post is what I took from what Kemosloby posted.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are you suggesting that Christians do not do good works? As the lights of the world we are to let our light shine that men may see our GOOD WORKS and glorify our Father in heaven. We take that as serious and you take any of your teachings.

Of course I am not suggesting Christians don't do good works. Peoples of all Faiths (and no faith) do good works, and peoples of all Faiths have faith! My concern is when people of one denomination or faith, imagine themselves to be right and everyone else wrong. Some Christians take it a step further and imagine believing in Jesus as God is all that is required. I suppose we can imagine anything we want, but my interest is in those that apply their faith to make the world a better place and to be of service to those around them and their communities. My point is, many people such as myself, are turned off by the self-righteous attitude of some faith adherents, born again Christians included.

 

[omega2xx]

Of course I am not suggesting Christians don't do good works. Peoples of all Faiths (and no faith) do good works, and peoples of all Faiths have faith!

No matter what the work is, if is not done to glorify God is not a good work. To help the needy to feel better about yourself, or to help is give you a good reputation or out of guilt or get a reward from God or man, it is not a good work.

My concern is when people of one denomination or faith, imagine themselves to be right and everyone else wrong.

If the Bible truly is God's inspired word, then it is the basis for determining who is right and who is wrong. If the writings or teachings of any religion contradict the Bible, IMO, it is wrong. Does me thinking it is wrong make it wrong? Of course not, but I am entitled to that opinion and IMO, Christian must express any Biblical idea to others. The true sign of love is to tell the truth.

Some Christians take it a step further and imagine believing in Jesus as God is all that is required.

If they do they are Biblically wrong.

I suppose we can imagine anything we want, but my interest is in those that apply their faith to make the world a better place and to be of service to those around them and their communities.

IMO the goal of Christianity is not to make the world a better place. It is make me a better person. Then, in obedience to God, we will, as the lights of the world, we will let our light shine so men will see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven,

The first question in the Presbyterian catechism is "What is the chief end of man?" The answer is, "the chief end of man is to glorify God and fully enjoy Him forever.

My point is, many people such as myself, are turned off by the self-righteous attitude of some faith adherents, born again Christians included.

IMO, you come off as self-righteous by making good works necessary for being accepted by God. You say "my religions requires me to do good works and make the world a better place, and I am doing that.

This not to taken as an insult. It is just the way i see things, and I may be wrong.

Bahai has some very good teachings and it is moral based. That is essential in any religion, but IMO, not enough and not the basis for any religion.

God and what He has done for us must the the basis of a religion, not what we do for
Him.

Jn 15:5c - "apart from Me(Jesus) you can do nothing."

 

[Dawnofhope]

No matter what the work is, if is not done to glorify God is not a good work. To help the needy to feel better about yourself, or to help is give you a good reputation or out of guilt or get a reward from God or man, it is not a good work.

I agree that purity of motive is equally as important as doing good. Are we not saying the same thing in different ways?

If the Bible truly is God's inspired word, then it is the basis for determining who is right and who is wrong. If the writings or teachings of any religion contradict the Bible, IMO, it is wrong.

In a sense I agree here as well. As you will appreciate its not quite that simple. There are important additional considerations:

(1) The bible has multiple books with multiple authors spanning centuries and coving a period of history of thousands of years. Some books contain the words of God, as you say. We would agree the gospels are a record of words Jesus spoke. Do we regard the words of Jesus as having the same relevance as the words of Moses? The bible is a book of change.
(2) If we are to regard the gospels as being central to the Christian message, we have the problem that Jesus provided a message to humanity within very different historic and social circumstances compared to the exigencies of this modern era.
(3) Jesus prophecised His return. It is incumbent on HIs Faithful followers to recognise the Returned Christ and Follow His teachings.

Does me thinking it is wrong make it wrong? Of course not, but I am entitled to that opinion and IMO, Christian must express any Biblical idea to others. The true sign of love is to tell the truth.

We are both entitled to our beliefs and I believe we are both sincere in what we believe.

If they do they are Biblically wrong.

I agree they are biblically wrong because a good tree must bear fruit. Belief along is not enough. We must manifest those teachings in our lives. There is an abundance of NT scripture that supports this position.

IMO the goal of Christianity is not to make the world a better place. It is make me a better person. Then, in obedience to God, we will, as the lights of the world, we will let our light shine so men will see our good works and glorify our Father in heaven,

The first question in the Presbyterian catechism is "What is the chief end of man?" The answer is, "the chief end of man is to glorify God and fully enjoy Him forever.

I would argue that the goal of Christianity is both personal salvation and to make the world a better place. Part of making the world a better place was Jesus's command to preach the gospels to all Nations. World peace is also envisaged in the book of Isaiah as well as Revelations.

IMO, you come off as self-righteous by making good works necessary for being accepted by God. You say "my religions requires me to do good works and make the world a better place, and I am doing that.

It is God who requires good works. I'm just passing on what Jesus teaches.

This not to taken as an insult. It is just the way i see things, and I may be wrong.

It is important for us both to recognise the uncomfortable reality that what we believe to be true may in fact not be. However that is part of humility and an essential characteristic we should all possess in some measure.

Bahai has some very good teachings and it is moral based. That is essential in any religion, but IMO, not enough and not the basis for any religion.

God and what He has done for us must the the basis of a religion, not what we do for
Him.

Jn 15:5c - "apart from Me(Jesus) you can do nothing."

I agree that God and what He had done must be the basis of a religion. Where we disagree is the acknowledgement that God has acted through great teaches that founded religions other than Christianity and Judaism.

Best Wishes

 

[SpiritQuest]

If God is all inclusive, then the exclusivity mindset of Christianity is an error. God is Truth, and that is the Whole Truth. Therefore the only things that are excluded are false beliefs. Ultimately, all are saved.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ie the silly argument of salvation through works made by some christians

My essential belief is that both Faith and Deeds are required for salvation. Neither is acceptable without the other.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If God is all inclusive, then the exclusivity mindset of Christianity is an error. God is Truth, and that is the Whole Truth. Therefore the only things that are excluded are false beliefs.

That is all correct IMHO

Ultimately, all are saved.

Only God can make that judgment according to biblical scripture. If we wish to be saved the best we can do is to have faith in Him and to live as He would wish. However Faith and good works is part of true faith communities, not just Christian ones.

 

[omega2xx]

I agree that purity of motive is equally as important as doing good. Are we not saying the same thing in different ways?

Since I don't know your motives, I can't tell for sure, This is going to sound judgemental, but it is not. IMO, most followers of a religion, including Christianity, who believe good works it the way to become acceptable to God are at least hinting, "look at me, I am doing good works.

Are you trying to glorify Jehovah or some Bahai god? I will accept as your motive, whatever you say.

n a sense I agree here as well. As you will appreciate its not quite that simple. There are important additional considerations:

Not for me. My only motive is to let my light shine, and many times I am a very dim bulb, so that m en may see my good works and glorify my Father in heaven.

(1) The bible has multiple books with multiple authors spanning centuries and coving a period of history of thousands of years. Some books contain the words of God, as you say. We would agree the gospels are a record of words Jesus spoke. Do we regard the words of Jesus as having the same relevance as the words of Moses? The bible is a book of change.

All Scripture is inspired by God. Who says it, including Jesus, is not what is important. Jesus did not speak on His own initiative, but spoke the words of God(Jn 12:49). Jesus was not omniscient during His incarnation.

(2) If we are to regard the gospels as being central to the Christian message, we have the problem that Jesus provided a message to humanity within very different historic and social circumstances compared to the exigencies of this modern era.

I have never understood why religious people want to put thing in the modern era. IMO, that is trying to make basic truth change to be PC. If it was true in the past, it is true today. Truth doe snot change with time.

(3) Jesus prophecised His return. It is incumbent on HIs Faithful followers to recognise the Returned Christ and Follow His teachings.

What makes you think Jesus has returned? As I remember, you do't think He ever left.

We are both entitled to our beliefs and I believe we are both sincere in what we believe.

Agreed, but one of us is sincerely wrong.

I agree they are biblically wrong because a good tree must bear fruit. Belief along is not enough. We must manifest those teachings in our lives. There is an abundance of NT scripture that supports this position.

Not "must" "will" manifest them in our live---works without faith is just as dead as faith without works.

I would argue that the goal of Christianity is both personal salvation and to make the world a better place. Part of making the world a better place was Jesus's command to preach the gospels to all Nations. World peace is also envisaged in the book of Isaiah as well as Revelations.

Only when Jesus takes over the throne, will we have peace on earth---There will be wars and rumors of war until that happens

It is God who requires good works. I'm just passing on what Jesus teaches.

The message is not "good works save us," it is good works because we are saved. Check who was doing the good works in the dividing of the sheep and goats---the righteous.

It is important for us both to recognise the uncomfortable reality that what we believe to be true may in fact not be. However that is part of humility and an essential characteristic we should all possess in some measure.

I am going to sound serving but I don't mean it that way. The Holy Spirit confirms in us the basic truths of the Bible. That does not mean we understand all spiritual truth completely, but God has convinced us of the basics. That is the only way we can be set free.

Deut 29:29 - The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the reveled things belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of the law.

I agree that God and what He had done must be the basis of a religion. Where we disagree is the acknowledgement that God has acted through great teaches that founded religions other than Christianity and Judaism.

Why would an omniscient God establish a religion that is contradicts the only one He says He inspired?

[/QUOTE]Best Wishes[/QUOTE]


Thanks, I enjoy our discussions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Since I don't know your motives, I can't tell for sure, This is going to sound judgemental, but it is not. IMO, most followers of a religion, including Christianity, who believe good works it the way to become acceptable to God are at least hinting, "look at me, I am doing good works.

Are you trying to glorify Jehovah or some Bahai god? I will accept as your motive, whatever you say.

I often want to do things because it is the right thing to do, and the right thing to do is what God wants me to do. All the Abrahamic faiths believe in One God (although argubaly Christianity believes in three gods). The mystic connection we have with God, bring us to a place of wanting to serve Him rather than be self serving. That being said, as soon as I imagine I'm any better than anyone else then I am humbled. As Jesus said, he who is least is greatest and he who is first will later be last.

Not for me. My only motive is to let my light shine, and many times I am a very dim bulb, so that m en may see my good works and glorify my Father in heaven.

Then that is a good place to be.

All Scripture is inspired by God. Who says it, including Jesus, is not what is important. Jesus did not speak on His own initiative, but spoke the words of God(Jn 12:49). Jesus was not omniscient during His incarnation.

While the srcipture in the Torah was inspired by God, the requirement to obey all the laws of Moses changed with the New Covenant that Jesus brought. There is no longer a requirement for communities to put to death those who would work on the Sabbath.

have never understood why religious people want to put thing in the modern era. IMO, that is trying to make basic truth change to be PC. If it was true in the past, it is true today. Truth doe snot change with time.

Both Moses and Jesus brought a Covenant that has universal truths for all times, but also teachings that are for a particular era. The commandment to love God is according to Jesus the greatest commandment. However this teaching is also found in the book of Deuteronomy. What God requires from us in this day is not necessarily the same as it was during the time of Christ. We live in the twenty first century and the challenges are very different to what they we two thousand years ago.

What makes you think Jesus has returned? As I remember, you do't think He ever left.

When Jesus indicated that John the Baptist represented the return of the Old Testament prophet Elijah, it was apparent that he had filled a prophecy in the book of Malachi, not literally but spiritually. This is the only example of a returned prophet in the NT. The return of Jesus is similar.

Agreed, but one of us is sincerely wrong.

Even though the Jews are wrong for denying Jesus was their Messiah, they still believe in Moses and God still loves them. Even though the Christians like the Jews of old have faied to recognise 'The Glory of God' has come, they still believe in Jesus. If I am right, then you are still right about Jesus.

Not "must" "will" manifest them in our live---works without faith is just as dead as faith without works.

That is why we need both faith and deeds. One without the other can not work.

Only when Jesus takes over the throne, will we have peace on earth---There will be wars and rumors of war until that happens

The gospel has been preached to all the nations and the Jews have returned to their homeland. It makes more sense for wars, floods and earthquakes to be a consequence of failing to recognise the Messiah. That being said WW2 brought Europe together in a way that is unparallelled in the history of Europe. This was prophecised by Baha'u'llah.

The message is not "good works save us," it is good works because we are saved. Check who was doing the good works in the dividing of the sheep and goats---the righteous.

Once again, it is through both Faith and good works that we are saved. The two reinforce each other. A house needs a good foundation to stand.

I am going to sound serving but I don't mean it that way. The Holy Spirit confirms in us the basic truths of the Bible. That does not mean we understand all spiritual truth completely, but God has convinced us of the basics. That is the only way we can be set free.

Deut 29:29 - The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the reveled things belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of the law.

It is true about the Holy Spirit confirming us.

Why would an omniscient God establish a religion that is contradicts the only one He says He inspired?

There is contradiction between the Covenant of Moses and Christ. They serve different purposes. The law of Moses was in part to prepare the Hebrew people to take the land of Canaan and to establish law and order in the land God had promised them through Abraham. This was not the main concern of Christ and the Jews naturally thoughht the Messiah would be a warrior King like King David, conquer the Romans and establish Gods laws in Isreal again. They still fail to understand how Jesus was their King. His purpose was vey different from that of Moses.

Thanks, I enjoy our discussions.

You are welcome. I do too.