The Exclusivity of Christianity

[Muffled]

What exactly is it you think you are receiving when you say this?

Do you think the Catholkics and Lutherans of 1940's Germany that committed the Holocaust had received Jesus as Lord and Savior? If not, how casn you know?

Is this good or bad? Are you anti-church and religion?

I believe I am receiving God. Also I am receiving love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control and few others I don't remember.

I believe it is possible. Peter certainly denied Jesus to avoid death. No doubt the people of Germany were terribly frightened of the Nazi SS and only someone willing to give his life for Jesus challenged them.

I believe it is bad when a church becomes the purveyor of false teaching and some have become apostate.

I believe I am neither.

 

[Muffled]

What moral authority do you believe you possess to pass judgment on liberal churches and liberal Christians?

Have you ever attended a liberal Christian church or personally known any liberal Christians?

I believe the only one qualified to judge is in me.

I believe I have attended liberal churches and have heard of others second hand.

 

[F1fan]

I believe I am receiving God. Also I am receiving love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, self control and few others I don't remember.

How did you come to believe all this? Who told you this is sound belief?

I believe it is possible. Peter certainly denied Jesus to avoid death. No doubt the people of Germany were terribly frightened of the Nazi SS and only someone willing to give his life for Jesus challenged them.

Yet it was Lutherans and Catholics who made up the SS and other workers for Nazi Germany's efforts against Jews, other minoritiy groups, and to wage war. Explain why Christians would not give up their live for the sake of innocent people, and instead conspired in genocide and war.

I believe it is bad when a church becomes the purveyor of false teaching and some have become apostate.

The problem is that Christianity has a long list of versions of truth, so which one is correct? How can any be said to be correct? Catholicism was the only type of Christianity for over 1200 years, but protestants think they have some version of truth that supercedes Catholicism.

I believe I am neither.

Sure, you believe to can step between the raindrops in a thunderstorm.

I believe the only one qualified to judge is in me.

And you could be mistaken in your belief. Civilized people judge each other as a routine to manitain order and civility.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that is insufficient because there are false messengers.

To say there can be no true Messengers because there are false messengers is illogical.
The fact that some messengers were false does not prove all messengers were false. That is the fallacy of hasty generalization, unless and until one has actually considered all the variables.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.
Hasty generalization - Wikipedia

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. messenger a was not a true messenger of God
2. messenger b was not a true messenger of God
3. messenger c was not a true messenger of God
4. messenger d was not a true messenger of God

Therefore, messenger d was not a true messenger of God.

It is true that the world is full of men who claimed to speak for God, but logically speaking that does not mean that there were not one or more Messengers who did speak for God.

Many years ago, I used to post to this atheist man on another forum, and he insisted that God would never use Messengers:

He said: Also, every imaginary god ever believed in did as well as to have at least one alleged messenger. These messengers also had their gullible followers who thought their messenger was the real deal, and also fantasized that they had evidence of their messenger being the real deal. So a god having a messenger thought to be the real deal doesn't mean ####.

A God having a Messenger thought to be the real deal does mean something if He was really a Messenger of God, but you will never know that because you assume without even looking at the Messenger that He cannot represent a real God.

I believe proof of God is that He does what He says He will do.

That is also true, and I believe that God has kept all His promises.

 

[halbhh]

To say there can be no true Messengers because there are false messengers is illogical.
The fact that some messengers were false does not prove all messengers were false. That is the fallacy of hasty generalization, unless and until one has actually considered all the variables.

Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables.
Hasty generalization - Wikipedia

Hasty generalization usually shows this pattern:

1. messenger a was not a true messenger of God
2. messenger b was not a true messenger of God
3. messenger c was not a true messenger of God
4. messenger d was not a true messenger of God

Therefore, messenger d was not a true messenger of God.

It is true that the world is full of men who claimed to speak for God, but logically speaking that does not mean that there were not one or more Messengers who did speak for God.

Many years ago, I used to post to this atheist man on another forum, and he insisted that God would never use Messengers:

He said: Also, every imaginary god ever believed in did as well as to have at least one alleged messenger. These messengers also had their gullible followers who thought their messenger was the real deal, and also fantasized that they had evidence of their messenger being the real deal. So a god having a messenger thought to be the real deal doesn't mean ####.

A God having a Messenger thought to be the real deal does mean something if He was really a Messenger of God, but you will never know that because you assume without even looking at the Messenger that He cannot represent a real God.

That is also true, and I believe that God has kept all His promises.

Potentially we are all Messengers of God, yes? (I'm saying this both as a fact, but also as a question in that I'd love to hear your view)

We are all imperfect of course, so plenty that isn't from God can easily get mixed in and many times even be the entire content of the message someone chooses to convey though...

 

[Trailblazer]

Potentially we are all Messengers of God, yes? (I'm saying this both as a fact, but also as a question in that I'd love to hear your view)

In the sense that we teach the message of Messengers of God and proclaim that He has come, we are all 'messengers' for the Messengers of God.
For example, the disciples of Jesus were messengers who announced the 'good news' gospel message.

Also, because we were made in the image of God, we have the 'potential' to reflect the attributes of God, just as the Messengers did, although to a lesser degree.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I believe the only one qualified to judge is in me.

I believe I have attended liberal churches and have heard of others second hand.

I believe that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I also believe that Christians don't have a leg to stand on, given the fact that they can't even agree with each other about what the Bible teaches and accuse each other of not being a true Christian. Personally, I don't have a legitimate reason to believe any Christian regarding what they believe the Bible says. If I asked a diverse group of Christians the same theological question, such as whether salvation is conditional or not, I'd get different answers depending on whether the Christians believe in Calvinism or Arminianism. Some Christians would tell me that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Some Christians would tell me that a person's salvation is unconditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Yet other Christians would tell me that baptism or speaking in tongues is required for salvation, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. Questions about how to properly baptize believers (fully immersed in water or sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors, and about the alleged end times (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation, and the rapture of Christians) would elicit the same derision among Christians. Not to mention the churches staking their claim as the "True Church" and implying that Christians in other churches are wrong in their theology and biblical interpretation.

I think it's ridiculous for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is ridiculous, in my opinion, that Christians apparently expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral and theological matters, yet they can't agree on what the Bible teaches.

 

[halbhh]

If I asked a diverse group of Christians the same theological question, such as whether salvation is conditional or not, I'd get different answers depending on whether the Christians believe in Calvinism or Arminianism. Some Christians would tell me that a person's salvation is conditional, and they would quote a few scriptures they believed supported their belief. ...(continues)

Yes.

And, really, there are not 2 human beings on Earth that think every detail about anything in precisely the same way of course.

If you find someone that agrees with you about 10 important things (I've found quite a few!), if you befriend them and continue to have conversations with them over the years...

Soon enough, after an hour or 10, you will hear them saying really unique points of view which you've never heard anywhere before.

I've always loved to have long conversations with people, and have talked for more than 20 minutes with something on the order of perhaps 1,000 people (say between 500 and 1500), and no 2 of them think the same.

But...in a way, that's wonderful!

It's so good.

Because it means that practically every person has some good unique things about them that makes them specially valuable in an irreplaceable way..

Say, like Ringo's drumming, or that of John Bonham -- I can never seem to get enough of new drumming styles that are somewhat different and unique. I think I've listened to at least 100 drummers where I just hated it that I ran out of time to keep listening that day.... And that started long before our very fortunate stage band in high school got to go see Buddy Rich perform.

I think I could hear 2,000 drumming styles and still be delighted to hear new ones.

And that's just drumming. That's far from the only unique thing I just totally love variation in...

Right? Can I get an 'amen'?

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that is insufficient because there are false messengers. I believe proof of God is that He does what He says He will do.

And how do we know which ones are the false ones? I've mentioned the one verse that says that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end several times. Just going by that, Baha'u'llah can't be the Messiah/Christ/Kalki/Maitreya, because there's still wars and rumors of wars.

But that doesn't bother Baha'is. So, does it matter how many failed or false prophecies are claimed to be fulfilled or anything else that puts their prophet into question? No, they will believe anyway. And we have a real good example in the followers of Donald Trump. No matter what, they believe him and believe his enemies are the liars.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think it's ridiculous for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world. It is ridiculous, in my opinion, that Christians apparently expect non-Christians to accept the Bible as divinely inspired and the final authority on moral and theological matters, yet they can't agree on what the Bible teaches.

I'll second that.

 

[CG Didymus]

But do each of you believe in everything the other person does? Like do you believe Baha'u'llah is the messenger sent from God for today? If so, why aren't you a Baha'i? If not, then to the Baha'is you're one of the blind ones too. And that is one of the huge problems with the Baha'i Faith in actually being able to unify people from other religions. Their unity depends on the person recognizing their prophet as the true one from God.

An answer from one Baha'i was.... "Baha'is do not call other believers blind just because they haven't recognized Baha'u'llah and unity does not depend upon everyone recognizing Baha'u'llah."

But this is what I found...

The Jews believe that they are the only possessors of the truth and condemn all other religions. The Christians affirm that their religion is the only true one, that all others are false. Likewise the Buddhists and Muhammadans; all limit themselves. If all condemn one another, where shall we search for truth? All contradicting one another, all cannot be true. If each believe his particular religion to be the only true one, he blinds his eyes to the truth in the others. … – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 135-136.​

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And this from Baha'u'llah...

These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation. As she never grasped their true significance, and, to outward seeming, such events never came to pass, she, therefore, remained deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus and of beholding the face of God.​

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"Deprived of recognizing the beauty of Jesus"? Or could you say they were "blind"? And in the other quote, Adul Baha' actually uses the words "blinds his eyes."

And how is the Baha' Faith going to be the cause of unity when people in other religions reject it and may even believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet? And then there is the problem, as we see here on the forum, Baha'is holding onto their beliefs and claiming that those beliefs are the truth from God only pushes those people further away.

So what could Baha'is do and what should Baha'is do to better the situation?

 

[muhammad_isa]

And how do we know which ones are the false ones?

Nobody knows for SURE..
We all rely on G-d to guide us.

Clearly, it is easy to claim that G-d is guiding us, so then it comes
down to our intentions.
If we are lazy and do not seek truth,
it will not necessarily fall in our lap.

Furthermore, this life is a spiritual journey .. we always have something to learn.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how is the Baha' Faith going to be the cause of unity when people in other religions reject it and may even believe Baha'u'llah to be a false prophet?

Why should the Baha'is be the CAUSE of unity?
We cannot MAKE the people of other religions want to unite. That would have to be their choice.

So what could Baha'is do and what should Baha'is do to better the situation?

Why should the Baha'is be doing something to 'better the situation?'
Why should that be OUR responsibility?

The only job that was given to us by Baha'u'llah was to proclaim that Baha'u'llah has come and teach the Faith IF people are interested....
After that it is out of our hands. We cannot make people SEE what they do not SEE and that is not the job that Baha'u'llah gave is to do.

“Consort with all men, O people of Bahá, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 289

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it's ridiculous for any Christian to claim that their biblical interpretation and theology are correct while insisting that other Christians are wrong, that the Bible is divinely inspired, and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world.

It is ridiculous for some of us. And, like you, some of us have been through it. I tried to believe during the Jesus Freak times of the mid-70's. It was awesome. Lots of young people getting together and singing Christian rock music. But the beliefs? The literal beliefs? I couldn't do it.

But I do agree with most of what those Born-Again Christians say is true about Christianity. If you believe, then Jesus is the only way. He died to pay for our sins. Sins that we could never do enough good or be good enough to pay for. And that makes them exclusive. That makes them the only truth... that is... if it's true. And those of us that don't believe in Christianity have plenty of reasons to doubt it is true.

But then, what do we do with the Baha'i Faith? I think they are just as exclusive. If they are true, then they have the new laws and teachings for the world today. The laws and teachings of the other religions have been replaced. So, is the Baha'i Faith the truth? That's what some of us here are arguing about. I think they have as many and very similar things to doubt and to question as Christianity.

 

[Muffled]

And how do we know which ones are the false ones? I've mentioned the one verse that says that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end several times. Just going by that, Baha'u'llah can't be the Messiah/Christ/Kalki/Maitreya, because there's still wars and rumors of wars.

But that doesn't bother Baha'is. So, does it matter how many failed or false prophecies are claimed to be fulfilled or anything else that puts their prophet into question? No, they will believe anyway. And we have a real good example in the followers of Donald Trump. No matter what, they believe him and believe his enemies are the liars.

I believe the God who saved me and revealed that He is in Jesus as well serves as the best determiner of which ones are speaking the truth.