The existence of god

[Sunstone]

The spandrel theory, however, I would say has a high speculation content. (ok, speculation isn't really the right word, but you get what I mean).

Actually, I don't get what you mean. So far as I know, the Spandrel Theory is well grounded in existing science.

 

[Sunstone]

position:

God only exists as a concept in the minds of humans and exists for two reasons, both based on humans' insecurity:

1 - Death. If god/metaphysical setup doesn't exist, then when I die, I will not exist. I cannot comprehend this. I don't want to comprehend this. God is a convenient way out of comprehending this.

2 - Why am I here? how did the big bang come about? Why does anything exist at all? Convenient explanation: invent 'god' and leave it to him.

Hi Chaffdog! Welcome to the Forum!

I couldn't help but notice your "explanations" for the origin of deity seem pretty old-fashioned. You can read speculations such as yours in books from the mid-1800s and perhaps before. So, I'm kind of curious how much work you put into researching the contemporary scientific literature on the subject? Would you say you are fairly well up to date on the subject? And if so, why are you apparently reviving those old guesses? I'm kind of confused, you see, because it appears to me you are attempting to reinvent the wooden wheel in an age of steel rims and high-tech tires.

 

[Storm]

People often believe they see things and because they do not understand natural phenomena they immediately believe it is a mystical experience.

Aurora borealis, earthquakes, floods were all believed to be mystical experiences. Then there's personal experiences. I don't speak for all here but im sure most of them feign experiences for attention/acceptance/money/15 minutes of fame and so forth. other people just hillucinate because they're whacked on drugs. Visions on the other hand from genuine people?

I know i've had some pretty messed up visions but im no neurologist so ill accept that my head wasn't in the right place. I certainly will not claim i've seen god or anything of the sort.

This is a simple miscommunication. I'm using the phrase in a highly specific way, to describe a distinct neurological state.

 

[Sunstone]

Aurora borealis, earthquakes, floods were all believed to be mystical experiences.

I'm confused, my friend, I've never once heard those things referred to either by mystics or by scholars of mysticism as mystical experiences. Do you have some special reason for supposing they are mystical experiences? And what do you consider defines something as a mystical experience as opposed to an ordinary experience?

 

[darkendless]

I'm confused, my friend, I've never once heard those things referred to either by mystics or by scholars of mysticism as mystical experiences. Do you have some special reason for supposing they are mystical experiences? And what do you consider defines something as a mystical experience as opposed to an ordinary experience?

With those examples im talking a long time ago when they feared that everything that happened to them which was bad was thought to be a message from God.

I mean by mystical anything that happens that is completely and utterly f***ed up with no apparent logical explanation other than relating to God. I used the above examples because people believed and many still do that God was responsible for everything.

I tend not to trust individual experiences because they are based on the individuals perception of God.

 

[Katzpur]

position:

God only exists as a concept in the minds of humans and exists for two reasons, both based on humans' insecurity:

1 - Death. If god/metaphysical setup doesn't exist, then when I die, I will not exist. I cannot comprehend this. I don't want to comprehend this. God is a convenient way out of comprehending this.

2 - Why am I here? how did the big bang come about? Why does anything exist at all? Convenient explanation: invent 'god' and leave it to him.

Counter-position:

Denying that God exists is a convenient way of ignoring the fact that you can't understand Him. For someone who doesn't want to admit that there are some things which, while real, cannot be explained, insisting that they don't exist at all is less humiliating than acknowledging that the human mind is incapable of knowing everything there is to know.

 

[Sunstone]

With those examples im talking a long time ago when they feared that everything that happened to them which was bad was thought to be a message from God.

I mean by mystical anything that happens that is completely and utterly f***ed up with no apparent logical explanation other than relating to God. I used the above examples because people believed and many still do that God was responsible for everything.

I tend not to trust individual experiences because they are based on the individuals perception of God.

Do you understand that what you mean by mystical is not what mystics and scholars of mysticism mean by mystical? I'm not saying your usage is wrong. I'm just saying it might help clarify things to understand that the same word is being used in two radically different ways.

 

[DallasApple]

Do you understand that what you mean by mystical is not what mystics and scholars of mysticism mean by mystical? I'm not saying your usage is wrong. I'm just saying it might help clarify things to understand that the same word is being used in two radically different ways.

You are picking at words now! How dare you!

Love

Dallas

 

[darkendless]

Do you understand that what you mean by mystical is not what mystics and scholars of mysticism mean by mystical? I'm not saying your usage is wrong. I'm just saying it might help clarify things to understand that the same word is being used in two radically different ways.

Religious experience (also known as a spiritual, sacred, or mystical experience) is an altered state of consciousness[dubious – discuss] where an individual reports contact with a transcendent reality, an encounter or union with the divine.

Wikipedia is my dictionary

 

[DallasApple]

Religious experience (also known as a spiritual, sacred, or mystical experience) is an altered state of consciousness[dubious – discuss] where an individual reports contact with a transcendent reality, an encounter or union with the divine.

Wikipedia is my dictionary

Cute!

Love

Dallas

 

[Sunstone]

Religious experience (also known as a spiritual, sacred, or mystical experience) is an altered state of consciousness[dubious – discuss] where an individual reports contact with a transcendent reality, an encounter or union with the divine.

Wikipedia is my dictionary

Close enough for government work, perhaps.

 

[darkendless]

Close enough for government work, perhaps.

Luckily my future employment is free of mystical experiences

 

[Ben Dhyan]

position:

God only exists as a concept in the minds of humans and exists for two reasons, both based on humans' insecurity:

1 - Death. If god/metaphysical setup doesn't exist, then when I die, I will not exist. I cannot comprehend this. I don't want to comprehend this. God is a convenient way out of comprehending this.

2 - Why am I here? how did the big bang come about? Why does anything exist at all? Convenient explanation: invent 'god' and leave it to him.

Concepts exist in the mortal mind but have no reality in themselves and exist for the reason of representing that which is perceived or imagined to exist or not exist.

When the human mind is still, all conceptual thinking ceases and the REAL which is normally hidden by concepts is revealed. When the human mind is thinking, concepts arise that hide the REAL.

 

[zenzero]

Friend chaffdog,

Just to add to friend ben's post;

Human's insecurity originates due to the MIND itself.
No mind - no insecurity, no god/satan, no birth/death. etc.

Love & rgds

 

[Falvlun]

We've already addressed this. There's nothing conveniently online for me to cite, so you'll all have to settle for the book recommendation. As for explaining it myself, I'm no neurologist, and I don't trust myself not to screw it up.

Ok, fair enough.

The fact that mystical experiences happen at all is proof that the concept wasn't simply invented.

I honestly do not follow.
We experience laser tag, but that doesn't mean that laser tag wasn't invented.

I am not saying that some people might not be having an honest-to-god mystical experience, but there can be other explanations for the experience, such as drugs, food/water deprivation, strong belief (that convinces us we see something when there really isn't anything there), etc.

When I was younger, I was a very devout Christian. I swear to you, after a night of heavy prayer, seeking his will, I saw Jesus appear to me in my room. I can't say for certain whether Jesus actually appeared to me, or whether it was just the invention of my exhausted mind, wishing fervently for an answer.

Yeah, I know. "Discover" is a poor turn of phrase, but I can't come up with anything better.

Ok, you are arguing that humans did not invent the concept of God, passing this theory down through generations, until it became ingrained in our psyche. You are instead arguing that the concept of God is sort of built into our brains, from the get go. Is this a correct analysis?

Uh, no, I'm not. I thought I made it pretty clear that I was referring to a certain type of experience. "God" is just the explanation.

Ok, I didn't get that; thanks for clearing it up.

 

[Storm]

Falvlun, I guess I haven't really articulated my argument very well. Basically, I'm saying that we didn't just make God up, any more than we invented fire. The concept of God is an understanding of something that simply happens to us, and this is true whether an actual God exists or not.

Is that better?