The expectations of Feminism and the poison of identity politics?

[SomeRandom]

The only problem is that there is no movement referred to as egalitarianism. Most of these issues have far more to do with identity politics and peer pressure, then they do movements.

Umm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism ??

So what? Just throw off all labels and wash my hands of it? Just side step this idiocy and hope it blows over eventually? What about in contexts where identity politics is literally changing the landscape whilst calling those who oppose it misogynists just to shut down the discussion?

I mean, if I write a book report, I have to quote the book multiple times in order to make a compelling case from what I am saying. Cherry picking is the act of just quoting selectively to cast shadow on the remainder of the material. I'm sure people do this all the time, but it would be a common issue for most people who try to write, as most people are not good at it, let alone at writing about literature.

Not exactly what I mean actually.
Okay, I understand looking at something with a very specific lens. What I don't understand is critiquing a game without context for the content.
Example. LA Noire. Now a feminist perspective of the game revealed to me that the game was entirely misogynistic. Reinforcing societal sexist attitudes, with at least three women NPCs being hit by men openly, without consequence. Many others implied this occurred and this without any recourse whatsoever. The dialogue often suggested implicit acceptability of this violence and the main protagonist making derogatory comments towards men who he felt were "acting like women." The game reinforced the notion that women are supposed to be meek and are often portrayed as conniving or demeaned for their lack of housework skills at least once during gameplay.
(Could be paraphrasing. It's been a while.)
What this "review" failed to mention was that the game took place entirely in the 1940s and actively tried to be an accurate portrayal.

I won't even touch on the GTA V "critiques." Some are good. Others, well, let's just say if I had tried the same approach in my English classes I would have found myself in detention.

It's like when Mafia II was accused of promoting the mafia. And it's like, umm, no, the Godfather movies are a romanticized portrayal of the mob. The main storyline of Mafia II revealed how ultimately empty the path in the Mob was for the player. It's like instantly conflating depiction with promotion. I guess it irks me a little bit.

 

[SomeRandom]

I only speak for myself and own my feminism. If I can administer a local feminist group of nearly 1000 members who likely identify as the SJW-type that irritates you, and still walk my own path regardless of the criticisms I hear from them about how I'm failing feminism, then you can too. I still am counted on to ban trolls, to write op-ed pieces, to handle in-house disagreements, and to provide resources for members for info and representation and legal recourse. I also own the website for our organization.

But what if I'm just some random noob who got dragged into this against my will? Because of being on the receiving end of this criticism? I'm not a blogger, I'm not an activist. I was just sort of by default a feminist because I was female while dealing with my confusion of all the mixed messages. I'm not into politics so I don't usually care enough to even go that far and label myself.
I only ever really noticed feminism when it decided to be the latest in an unusually long line of people to attack video games. I mean the early media scares I could understand. I could even understand the whole "you're a geek so we're socially shunning you" thing. But this new identity politics trying to be shoved into the industry I see as a threat to artistic freedom. Which piqued my interest because.........Well I actually don't know why. Just irked me enough to get invested. Or maybe I was just bored at the time and I got dragged into it's black hole of stupidity. I don't know.

My thoughts are that we need diversity in our own ranks. Challenge and support each other and fight systems, not people. I prohibit bullying in my studio, my home, and if I'm leading a feminist meeting, I prohibit it there too. My opinion is gaming ought not to allow bullying on its playground either, since I have heard from fellow Nerd Culture gamers who are also close friends of mine that they suffered from bullying IRL as kids, and I feel it wrong to support similar behavior toward anyone inside or outside of one's circle.

Well of course I do not condone or support bullying.

Gaming reacts to how you react though. Well most of the time anyway. If you go into an MMO and start being a *****y little whiny crybaby or pushing your identity politics onto other people chances are other gamers will **** on you. That's how it goes. If you go in and are innocent and still get flack, you respond back and laugh. Because 9 times out of 10 the "bully" is just some random 13 year old who is just being a young buck or just trolling. If you just lie down and then complain, other gamers, male and female alike, probably won't respect you. And you can thank the SJWs for that. Because their antics have essentially created that specific baggage for female gamers such as myself. So thanks for that SJWs.
Because EVERYONE in gaming gets that sort of flack at least sometimes. Before men would have probably helped to defend me if it got too much for me. But now many seem to be on the defensive these days and so I have to "toughen up a bit" so they don't think I'm a weak victim myself. Again, baggage added specifically because of the "gaming is sexist" crowd. They've made things worse, not better.
Having said that, many times I have gotten free stuff and people being very helpful just for being a female player in an MMO. Though I'm not really into that scene, as it were.

I've also received death threats and rape threats. Not for any of the times I've spoken, lectured, or performed as an artist. Only when I've made appearances or written on sexism. So being a public figure does not preclude an expectation of multiple threats. However, my experiences on expressing my thoughts to the public about feminism has resulted in being targeted. SR, it is not cute, infantile, or simple stirring of the pot. It is not whining that I report to local law enforcement that my family has been threatened. I am not being a professional victim when I highlight these threats made to me and my family.

When people call Sarks or whoever a "professional victim" they're not actually mocking or otherwise demeaning them for complaining about or reporting death/rape threats. In fact many of her detractors have actually publicly stated multiple times that she does not deserve such threats. Ever. And I actually completely agree at the end of the day. No one should be sending her such filth.
But there's a whole slew of context and baggage with that statement. Blocking dissenters, disabling comments and the thumbs up/down ratio on your videos, hiding behind "white knights" and even perceived hypocritical actions. So you can't just take the "professional victim" statement on face value. It's something of a vernacular term really.

Being a professional victim can also be used in the context of someone using said death threats specifically as a way to shut down people's arguments, freeze people out or outright ignore others who have different experiences or use it to claim every gamer is sexist just by default of being male. It's like when the #notyourshield was a thing. It was publicly called a movement of nothing but sockpuppets (fake accounts) by a very prominent game dev no less and others immediately said that because of the "death threats sent to insert feminist here" the movement was in implicit support of the prevailing sexist attitudes in gaming. Without really addressing their points or their arguments. That tends to rub people the wrong way. Especially since that sort of derision came from a group which publicly states that it is all about giving a voice to the voiceless and supposedly champions for minorities. I wasn't even in that #thingy and even I was quite disgusted by it all.

Sakrs herself is mainly hated because she's seen as a charlatan, using outrage to bolster her funds, but puts out very little content. And when she does it's actually riddled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations. Which is a shame, because she does offer some legit points. But alas. She peddles the message that women need to be empowered, whilst being a damsel in distress.
No one is really against the idea of a feminist offering their own perspective or giving a voice to feminist gamers. But the way they have gone about trying to implement that in the gaming world is not exactly welcome nor should one expect it to be. The approach was too condescending, too arrogant, too ill informed and dare I say too whiny. So they've pretty much ****ed it up for everyone. At least for a while.

None of the threats have come from SJW's who are very critical of my handling of feminism. They have all come from self-described MRA's and egalitarians who claim they want to "expose feminism for what it is". They tend to show up claiming to be feminists and then the personal messages would begin followed by revealing to me their rage, their disgust, how they want to see me gagged while watching my husband bludgeoned to death and my daughter raped in front of me, and how they want to have me tortured and raped over weeks of time while slowly dying the entire time.

That is beyond awful. I am sorry you have to deal with such crap.

As one example. The infiltrations have occurred about a dozen times. Whining might be irritating, but I'll take that any day over anti-feminist rage. The latter has resulted in actual threats to me and my family as human beings. Shall I challenge MRA's and egalitarians to take responsibility for the crazies in their midst? Shall I return the rage and direct it to people or movements that **** me off? Of course not. That would be pointless at best and destructive at worst.

Why not? I think we should. Just like moderate Christians tend to call out crazy ones, so should moderates in their respective movements call out crazies in their midst. That's why anti feminist rage is a thing in the first place. There hasn't been very many moderate voices calling out the crazies in feminism. At least not publicly. Or rather not prominently in the circles I loiter around in. It's better to be proactive, right?

If you see yourself as a feminist, then own it. Simple as that. There are far more feminists who do that than otherwise.

I don't know if I do. I was never good at labeling myself. Mainly due to familial pressures and I guess being of a mixed background. The confusion is part of the parcel and reconciling two identities is a tricky thing to do. Identity politics adds another layer of confusion to that mix. I am me, I guess. That's all I really know right now.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I had to look up MRA and SJW. (Mens Rights Activists and Social Justice Warrior feminists, respectively) I think Sarks is the name of the female game writer who was catching a lot of abuse from idiots on the Steam gaming community.

MRA? Really? I don't think that a political movement about parental rights is smart to allow itself to be called MRA. That is just asking for all the most angry people and desperate to step forward. Death threats? What could be more stupid and undermine the 'Movement' more than that? Its not really a political movement in other words but a name that is undermining a political desire. Any hope of making MRA part of the movement for rebalancing parental rights is shot. Just throw the name out and rename it something that doesn't bring out the crazies.

SJW? Umm. They like to be called 'Warriors'? Really? Oh, never mind. Its not what they call themselves. That would be nuts if they called themselves that.

 

[SomeRandom]

I had to look up MRA and SJW. (Mens Rights Activists and Social Justice Warrior feminists, respectively) I think Sarks is the name of the female game writer who was catching a lot of abuse from idiots on the Steam gaming community.

MRA? Really? I don't think that a political movement about parental rights is smart to allow itself to be called MRA. That is just asking for all the most angry people and desperate to step forward. Death threats? What could be more stupid and undermine the 'Movement' more than that? Its not really a political movement in other words but a name that is undermining a political desire. Any hope of making MRA part of the movement for rebalancing parental rights is shot. Just throw the name out and rename it something that doesn't bring out the crazies.

SJW? Umm. They like to be called 'Warriors'? Really? Oh, never mind. Its not what they call themselves. That would be nuts if they called themselves that.

Not familiar with MRAs. So I don't know. But that's a good point. I suppose since they do in fact champion for men's rights often through activism the name is sort of a literal definition. What about MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) though?

SJWs do in fact call themselves warriors. It started as an insult, it's still used as one. But some seem to use the title proudly anyway.

Anita (Sarks) is indeed the lady getting flack from gamers. There's a lot of history there. So.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Not familiar with MRAs. So I don't know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_rights_movement Its a fake movement that if taken too seriously would damage any hope of rebalancing parental rights in divorce cases any time soon. It would be like trying to influence the justice system by crapping on every judge's front porch or a waiter trying to get better tips by slapping customers in the face. Its just stupid.

SJWs do in fact call themselves warriors. It started as an insult, it's still used as one. But some seem to use the title proudly anyway.

Its their 'Yankee doodle'?

Anita (Sarks) is a professional damsel in distress who basically encourages the flack she gets for being ill informed, spreading misinformation, libelous calling gamers all sexists/racists, her hypocrisy and her constant need to hide behind her alleged death threats to avoid argument. So yes, she gets a lot of hate from the steam gaming community. Because of her actions, she's basically invited trolls towards her. That's how internet culture works a lot of the time. Many just like to rile her up for fun because they know she's easy pickings.
Also some Gamers are sick of people like her. As a woman, I'm embarrassed that that is someone who represents my gender in gaming. So while I don't personally condone death threats or the like and agree she shouldn't receive any, at this point, she sort of brought it on herself.

Such noise has never reached me, so I don't know a great deal except what I heard through someone here on the forums one time. Although I have bought some steam games I am not really into their voting system. They have a community voting system to determine what game ideas should be supported, which is pretty amazing. Its because its produced by Valve, a company that is run by employees. Basically this girl was writing video games and didn't like that a lot of the other games gave women enormous breasts, and she noticed a lot of teenage idiots would harass other female developers. That's all I know. I don't think that she can bring the death threats on herself, no matter how she behaves or how riled she gets. That is on the vermin who make the threats.

 

[SomeRandom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men's_rights_movement Its a fake movement that if taken too seriously would damage any hope of rebalancing parental rights in divorce cases any time soon. It would be like trying to influence the justice system by crapping on every judge's front porch or a waiter trying to get better tips by slapping customers in the face. Its just stupid.

I don't know. There seems to be some sort of war between them and some Feminists going on as far as I can tell.

Its their 'Yankee doodle'?

Huh?

Such noise has never reached me, so I don't know a great deal except what I heard through someone here on the forums one time. Although I have bought some steam games I am not really into their voting system. They have a community voting system to determine what game ideas should be supported, which is pretty amazing. Its because its produced by Valve, a company that is run by employees. Basically this girl was writing video games and didn't like that a lot of the other games gave women enormous breasts, and she noticed a lot of teenage idiots would harass other female developers. That's all I know. I don't think that she can bring the death threats on herself, no matter how she behaves or how riled she gets. That is on the vermin who make the threats.

Oh the history of it all, my friend.
Basic breakdown, she's viewed as a charlatan, is ill informed about the games she's supposed to write about, calls gamers sexists without proof, she says things like "the more you think something doesn't affect you, the more it does" hides behind her death threats (which usually look like the common garden variety trolls to me, but whatever) to avoid having meaningful discussions or address dissent properly and basically makes money off her platform of exposing this Illuminati type Sexism in the industry. As well as suspiciously making the largest portion of her yearly income (at least this year) after a publicized bomb threat, which the police dismissed as fake.
Oh and she went in front of the UN who later put out a report calling internet "violence" the same as real life violence, which probably pissed off people who experienced physical violence. But no matter, the report was so embarrassingly shoddy that they retracted it and I haven't heard about it since.

Some advice. If you're on the internet, broadly, with many subs or followers. Don't be a coward and block all discussion whilst constantly lamenting that people send you nasty messages. It basically encourages trolls because you have essentially told them that they succeed in breaking you. Which appeals to them. That's what I mean when I say she basically brought it on herself. Because she kind of did.

Actually this post sums it up better than I can

https://did%3D558d18d63047cd388aa73357568b3d7fbfc23539%3Bid%3D61540153015%3Bkey%3D3cgKRCMuDlL1odsBlROHvw%3Bname%3Dcephalopodlovesong

 

[MysticSang'ha]

But what if I'm just some random noob who got dragged into this against my will? Because of being on the receiving end of this criticism? I'm not a blogger, I'm not an activist. I was just sort of by default a feminist because I was female while dealing with my confusion of all the mixed messages. I'm not into politics so I don't usually care enough to even go that far and label myself.
I only ever really noticed feminism when it decided to be the latest in an unusually long line of people to attack video games. I mean the early media scares I could understand. I could even understand the whole "you're a geek so we're socially shunning you" thing. But this new identity politics trying to be shoved into the industry I see as a threat to artistic freedom. Which piqued my interest because.........Well I actually don't know why. Just irked me enough to get invested. Or maybe I was just bored at the time and I got dragged into it's black hole of stupidity. I don't know.

I'm an artist by trade myself, so as far as I'm concerned, when there is an industry that utilizes creativity for profit and reaches very wide audiences, politics will be involved whether anyone likes it or not. Gaming itself doesn't get to claim Special Snowflake status and stand outside the arena while books, film, music, dance, painting, etc are all subjected to ethical and cultural critique by academics, religious leaders, politicians, and armchair psychologists. The industry itself can - and should - be examined with the same vigor as any other industry that utilizes skills in tech and design due to the size of it's audience. One would be hard pressed to convince me that feminist writers and scholars should not examine gaming on any level. We will anyway, as I believe we should. We get **** on for examining pornography for heavens sake...you think feminists will reconsider examining gaming if enough people are annoyed by it? It won't happen. Gaming can handle it if it's worth any salt, which I think it is.

Well of course I do not condone or support bullying.

Gaming reacts to how you react though. Well most of the time anyway. If you go into an MMO and start being a *****y little whiny crybaby or pushing your identity politics onto other people chances are other gamers will **** on you. That's how it goes. If you go in and are innocent and still get flack, you respond back and laugh. Because 9 times out of 10 the "bully" is just some random 13 year old who is just being a young buck or just trolling. If you just lie down and then complain, other gamers, male and female alike, probably won't respect you. And you can thank the SJWs for that. Because their antics have essentially created that specific baggage for female gamers such as myself. So thanks for that SJWs.
Because EVERYONE in gaming gets that sort of flack at least sometimes. Before men would have probably helped to defend me if it got too much for me. But now many seem to be on the defensive these days and so I have to "toughen up a bit" so they don't think I'm a weak victim myself. Again, baggage added specifically because of the "gaming is sexist" crowd. They've made things worse, not better.
Having said that, many times I have gotten free stuff and people being very helpful just for being a female player in an MMO. Though I'm not really into that scene, as it were.

The onus is on the perpetrators. We don't blame people who cry wolf on auto theft for a rise in auto thefts in a community. If things get tougher for people in the middle of a political battle, it is and always will be the fault of those who actually harass and target, not the whiners. Whiners are immature and exist everywhere. They aren't the culprit.

I work with theatre people. Trust me when "drama" comes up in my industry and problems occur.

When people call Sarks or whoever a "professional victim" they're not actually mocking or otherwise demeaning them for complaining about or reporting death/rape threats. In fact many of her detractors have actually publicly stated multiple times that she does not deserve such threats. Ever. And I actually completely agree at the end of the day. No one should be sending her such filth.
But there's a whole slew of context and baggage with that statement. Blocking dissenters, disabling comments and the thumbs up/down ratio on your videos, hiding behind "white knights" and even perceived hypocritical actions. So you can't just take the "professional victim" statement on face value. It's something of a vernacular term really.

Being a professional victim can also be used in the context of someone using said death threats specifically as a way to shut down people's arguments, freeze people out or outright ignore others who have different experiences or use it to claim every gamer is sexist just by default of being male. It's like when the #notyourshield was a thing. It was publicly called a movement of nothing but sockpuppets (fake accounts) by a very prominent game dev no less and others immediately said that because of the "death threats sent to insert feminist here" the movement was in implicit support of the prevailing sexist attitudes in gaming. Without really addressing their points or their arguments. That tends to rub people the wrong way. Especially since that sort of derision came from a group which publicly states that it is all about giving a voice to the voiceless and supposedly champions for minorities. I wasn't even in that #thingy and even I was quite disgusted by it all.

Sakrs herself is mainly hated because she's seen as a charlatan, using outrage to bolster her funds, but puts out very little content. And when she does it's actually riddled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations. Which is a shame, because she does offer some legit points. But alas. She peddles the message that women need to be empowered, whilst being a damsel in distress.
No one is really against the idea of a feminist offering their own perspective or giving a voice to feminist gamers. But the way they have gone about trying to implement that in the gaming world is not exactly welcome nor should one expect it to be. The approach was too condescending, too arrogant, too ill informed and dare I say too whiny. So they've pretty much ****ed it up for everyone. At least for a while.

How about just saying, "Sarks scams, she's uninformed, and I disagree, but she doesn't deserve the death threats"?

And then move on?

Seriously I think the rage directed at her is far more indicative of the people who carry that rage than anything indicative about her as a person or her character. I'd say the same thing about Justin bieber, donald trump, or Obama. Drop the rage, folks, jeez.

That is beyond awful. I am sorry you have to deal with such crap.

Thanks.

Why not? I think we should. Just like moderate Christians tend to call out crazy ones, so should moderates in their respective movements call out crazies in their midst. That's why anti feminist rage is a thing in the first place. There hasn't been very many moderate voices calling out the crazies in feminism. At least not publicly. Or rather not prominently in the circles I loiter around in. It's better to be proactive, right?

I'll call out crazies in feminism for any threatening or doxxing or harassment. I don't begrudge any feminists for simply being unpopular or saying kooky things. Tumblr seems to be an interesting ride into feminist and queer theory. They're not sources though. And there's no need to deride them if I simply disagree.

I don't know if I do. I was never good at labeling myself. Mainly due to familial pressures and I guess being of a mixed background. The confusion is part of the parcel and reconciling two identities is a tricky thing to do. Identity politics adds another layer of confusion to that mix. I am me, I guess. That's all I really know right now.

That's cool. I hear you. I never seemed to fit in anywhere in my experience. I'm an artist and a business owner who loves having recreational sex outside my marriage and who loves making a lot of money. I tend to ruffle feathers by entering a room, but I get some respect as well for the same traits and decisions and perspectives. C'est la vie.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't know. There seems to be some sort of war between them and some Feminists going on as far as I can tell.

What medium is this war being waged in? I don't think its academic, and I haven't heard the major political parties talking about it. I have a difficult time taking the MRA thing seriously, because it seems like a product without much of a market. For example I'm not a parent, so I don't care a lot about parental rights. If I were a married parent, I still wouldn't care that much. The only people who might care a lot are likely to be single fathers, and while they could care about parental rights how many of them would actually believe that feminism was the source of their problems? It sounds like buzz.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm an artist by trade myself, so as far as I'm concerned, when there is an industry that utilizes creativity for profit and reaches very wide audiences, politics will be involved whether anyone likes it or not. Gaming itself doesn't get to claim Special Snowflake status and stand outside the arena while books, film, music, dance, painting, etc are all subjected to ethical and cultural critique by academics, religious leaders, politicians, and armchair psychologists. The industry itself can - and should - be examined with the same vigor as any othetr industry that utilizes skills in tech and design due to the size of it's audience. One would be hard pressed to convince me that feminist writers and scholars should not examine gaming on any level. We will anyway, as I believe we should. We get **** on for examining pornography for heavens sake...you think feminists will reconsider examining gaming if enough people are annoyed by it? It won't happen. Gaming can handle it if it's worth any salt, which I think it is.

It can. I want it to be examined. I think you'll find most people kind of do, really.
But you're missing one vital ingredient. The history.
This is a group already weary of political examination, because the previous group who tried that were basically saying that adult games should be banned and gamers were this group of violent evil people.
When another politically charged group comes in, using the same language and arguments as the previous group, I mean what do you expect will happen? Feminists are the ones who ****ed up here, not the gamers.
If the gaming journos back in 2014 had just come out and said, hey, there's corruption in our ranks. We will do X to address it. And then a bunch of feminists came in like, hey, we've been gaming forever. But here's a few issues that maybe need to be addressed. We would have a much more feminist friendly landscape already in gaming.
But no. Instead they just came in all smug, half cocked, with a very condescending attitude, loaded with misinformation and expected to silence debate with "you're being sexist." So naturally gamers being gamers just told them to **** off. And rightfully so, imo.
Neither side are angels, but it's not entirely gaming's fault that it reacted and still reacts to feminists the way it does.

The onus is on the perpetrators. We don't blame people who cry wolf on auto theft for a rise in auto thefts in a community. If things get tougher for people in the middle of a political battle, it is and always will be the fault of those who actually harass and target, not the whiners. Whiners are immature and exist everywhere. They aren't the culprit.

As do harassers. You can let it affect you and whine about it. Or you can laugh them off like they deserve to be or just turn off your headset. I mean no one's saying it's a perfect environment, but the majority of games I've played (even the likes of freaking Runescape back in the day) allows you to report malicious behavior. This is not some awful evil place where women are constantly harassed. Men face more of it in fact. So what is it that these feminists want exactly? Tbh it's sometimes hard to tell.

I work with theatre people. Trust me when "drama" comes up in my industry and problems occur.

Lol, I wonder who would win in a drama contest between the English Majors and the Theater Majors. I grew up around English teacher "types" dear god did they ever love the drama.

How about just saying, "Sarks scams, she's uninformed, and I disagree, but she doesn't deserve the death threats"?

And then move on?

Seriously I think the rage directed at her is far more indicative of the people who carry that rage than anything indicative about her as a person or her character. I'd say the same thing about Justin bieber, donald trump, or Obama. Drop the rage, folks, jeez.

Maybe because she is worshiped by the gaming media and is treated as the next Susan B Anthony of video games? And her defenders are just as vicious if not more so than many of the dissenters? Often stooping to doxxing people or trying to get people fired (see Thunderf00t vs Laughing Witch. That started basically because some lady didn't like a guy's criticisms of Anita.) Plus she's not exactly a good person, if you feel me.
There are many factors in play here, not just that she's uninformed, scams folks and people disagree. There is quite a bit of collateral damage because of her. Plus there are far more deserving voices to be heard in the industry. She does nothing with her voice, productively speaking.

Besides it's the internet. How can you not expect the rage factor? Like come on.

I'll call out crazies in feminism for any threatening or doxxing or harassment. I don't begrudge any feminists for simply being unpopular or saying kooky things. Tumblr seems to be an interesting ride into feminist and queer theory. They're not sources though. And there's no need to deride them if I simply disagree.

Well that makes like 3 so far I've found. So Yay!!
Lol oh Tumblr.

That's cool. I hear you. I never seemed to fit in anywhere in my experience. I'm an artist and a business owner who loves having recreational sex outside my marriage and who loves making a lot of money. I tend to ruffle feathers by entering a room, but I get some respect as well for the same traits and decisions and perspectives. C'est la vie.

Lol like a boss.

 

[SomeRandom]

What medium is this war being waged in? I don't think its academic, and I haven't heard the major political parties talking about it. I have a difficult time taking the MRA thing seriously, because it seems like a product without much of a market. For example I'm not a parent, so I don't care a lot about parental rights. If I were a married parent, I still wouldn't care that much. The only people who might care a lot are likely to be single fathers, and while they could care about parental rights how many of them would actually believe that feminism was the source of their problems? It sounds like buzz.

I don't know. But whenever I speak of feminism, at least one person always brings up the MRAs to diss them or accuses some dissenting opinion of being one. I've been accused of being one many times. Despite not knowing what the hell it stood for. Hell even the anti feminists often seem to bring them up just to bash them. It's.......strange.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't know. But whenever I speak of feminism, at least one person always brings up the MRAs to diss them or accuses some dissenting opinion of being one. I've been accused of being one many times. Despite not knowing what the hell it stood for. Hell even the anti feminists often seem to bring them up just to bash them. It's.......strange.

Yeah I suppose it is. I personally started a conspiracy theory once, just by mentioning the possibility of something, and I was sorry that I did. It went round and round. I still hear it today from certain sectors. Stupid me!

 

[SomeRandom]

Yeah I suppose it is. I personally started a conspiracy theory once, just by mentioning the possibility of something, and I was sorry that I did. It went round and round. I still hear it today from certain sectors. Stupid me!

Wow really? You, sir or madam, are officially a successful troll. Congrats lol

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It can. I want it to be examined. I think you'll find most people kind of do, really.
But you're missing one vital ingredient. The history.
This is a group already weary of political examination, because the previous group who tried that were basically saying that adult games should be banned and gamers were this group of violent evil people.
When another politically charged group comes in, using the same language and arguments as the previous group, I mean what do you expect will happen? Feminists are the ones who ****ed up here, not the gamers.

Horse hockey. Gamers are not the only ones who have had to deal with this kind of examination and blacklisting. What do you think male ballet dancers have to endure? Pole dancers? There are plenty of people who are wholly ignorant and sexist that bring their baggage to criticism of the dance industry. And this has been happening for much longer than the gaming industry. Sorry, I just don't buy the "feminists started this crap and deserve being treated horribly" defense. Dancers are expected to handle the backlash and the ignorance and the gossip and the drama from the haters with poise. I don't think gamers are unable to handle the criticism with some damn dignity.

If the gaming journos back in 2014 had just come out and said, hey, there's corruption in our ranks. We will do X to address it. And then a bunch of feminists came in like, hey, we've been gaming forever. But here's a few issues that maybe need to be addressed. We would have a much more feminist friendly landscape already in gaming.
But no. Instead they just came in all smug, half cocked, with a very condescending attitude, loaded with misinformation and expected to silence debate with "you're being sexist." So naturally gamers being gamers just told them to **** off. And rightfully so, imo.
Neither side are angels, but it's not entirely gaming's fault that it reacted and still reacts to feminists the way it does.

If both sides are at fault, I say approach it with fervor against both sides.

As do harassers. You can let it affect you and whine about it. Or you can laugh them off like they deserve to be or just turn off your headset. I mean no one's saying it's a perfect environment, but the majority of games I've played (even the likes of freaking Runescape back in the day) allows you to report malicious behavior. This is not some awful evil place where women are constantly harassed. Men face more of it in fact. So what is it that these feminists want exactly? Tbh it's sometimes hard to tell.

I don't write much about gaming, since that is an area I'm not as familiar in. But I can understand the need to standardize representation in gaming in the same manner and humor that the Bechdel Test has for film and tv, as well as to examine what may or may not be sexist tropes that mirror sexist attitudes IRL.

Lol, I wonder who would win in a drama contest between the English Majors and the Theater Majors. I grew up around English teacher "types" dear god did they ever love the drama.

I tend to think that it fuels performance when channeled expertly, and that any director worth his or her salt should be unafraid to see drama in their colleagues. It's part of the package along with inflated egos or self-loathing egos.

Maybe because she is worshiped by the gaming media and is treated as the next Susan B Anthony of video games? And her defenders are just as vicious if not more so than many of the dissenters? Often stooping to doxxing people or trying to get people fired (see Thunderf00t vs Laughing Witch. That started basically because some lady didn't like a guy's criticisms of Anita.) Plus she's not exactly a good person, if you feel me.
There are many factors in play here, not just that she's uninformed, scams folks and people disagree. There is quite a bit of collateral damage because of her. Plus there are far more deserving voices to be heard in the industry. She does nothing with her voice, productively speaking.

Besides it's the internet. How can you not expect the rage factor? Like come on.

Rage does not factor in all spheres on the internet. I don't expect it and I find it sad if I am expected to assume this is how people just are all over the internet. I expect better.

Well that makes like 3 so far I've found. So Yay!!
Lol oh Tumblr.

There are far far far more like me who live and let live. And who don't have to be Christina Hoff Summers to do that (which I find to be more of an apologist to MRA's and GamerGate than engage in feminist critique of culture...her critique is toward other feminists, so meh).

Lol like a boss.

Kindred spirits, alike, you and I are.

 

[SomeRandom]

Horse hockey. Gamers are not the only ones who have had to deal with this kind of examination and blacklisting. What do you think male ballet dancers have to endure? Pole dancers? There are plenty of people who are wholly ignorant and sexist that bring their baggage to criticism of the dance industry. And this has been happening for much longer than the gaming industry. Sorry, I just don't buy the "feminists started this crap and deserve being treated horribly" defense. Dancers are expected to handle the backlash and the ignorance and the gossip and the drama from the haters with poise. I don't think gamers are unable to handle the criticism with some damn dignity.

Are male ballet dancers and pole dancers expected to live up to the expectations of people who aren't even a major part of the consumer base? Are they expected the change their respective mediums so suit the sensibilities of the SJW crowd? Are they called evil because the majority usually have very toned physiques?
And they then expected to have people in the industry that are slightly overweight or just sort of average? Or do they ignore that as just nonsense and instead focus on their craft?

No one is saying that games couldn't improve. No one is saying feminists and females alike shouldn't voice their concerns and get games catered to them. But when a dev does cater to these concerns, the very people they are trying to appease don't often seem to buy them. Why? Because the people with this "criticism" aren't actually consumers. Or if they are, it's never ****ing enough for them.
Linkle, for example, was practically a response calling for a female version of Link. Many gamers were happy with Linkle's design, her backstory and were excited to play as her. But fem frequency were all like, oh she's not on a major console. SEXISTS!!! Despite most female gamers, ie her fanbase presumably, being casual gamers. Which means they aren't normally console or PC gamers. Which is perfectly acceptable. But the devs are trying to target the demographic who called for this, specifically You know? Like normal business savvy people would?
But suddenly it's sexist because it's not on a major console. And ironically enough, many console/PC gamers seem perfectly happy to play the game regardless. So she will probably feature on a major console in the future anyway. This is why Anita is called a whiner. When something happens which she herself wanted in the first place, she finds something else to whine about almost immediately.
Bayonetta, for example, is enjoyed by many female gamers. Why? Because she's a tough, no nonsense, sarcastic witty strong woman. She's also a very powerful female sexual fantasy. But no, her boobage is catering to the "male gaze" and that's evil........for some reason. I mean granted she is often fan service-y in the first (haven't played the second, so I can't comment one way or the other about it) but often it seems like it's almost mocking that trait at the same time anyway. So..............

It's not even that gamers aren't okay with games being made for people's sensibilities. They're simply saying, leave other people's artistic freedom alone and make some yourself. Gamers tend to side with the artsy types. They expect that if someone has a problem with the way something is portrayed that that person will actively make a game that makes them happy. And that sort of approach is actually pretty respected in most circles I run in. I mean say what you will about the likes of Joss Whedon, for example, at least he has the balls to make his own art which appeals to his sensitivities. Instead of solely whining about other's work.
But even that is not enough. The Fine Young Capitalists, for example, a group who wanted to bring together exclusively female game devs to design games that they wanted to play, is instead attacked by these so called "culture critiques." Because.........Actually I have no idea why they were labelled sexists by the media and Quinn. So it's the hypocrisy of it all that really gets people's goats. (Why is that a saying?)

This is not criticism. Critique offers a dialogue if I'm not mistaken. And is intellectually honest. At least it's expected to be. This is whiny rad fems trying to foist their extremist version of PC sensibilities onto normal people who just want to be left alone. And often these types of issues aren't organically presented in games. They're shoehorned in. Which is bound to get a reaction from gamers because it's like the landscape is being forced to change artistically (which brings about fears of artistic repression) and they're not done well. Which is probably the biggest crime of all. You know when you see a movie and you can tell it's done by a group of execs trying to appeal to focus groups instead of telling a story? That's what it feels like when these issues are thrown in to appease these idiots. It's not organic, it doesn't enhance the storytelling and it's seems stifling to honest creativity.
So they fought back against this specifically because gamers like a challenge and they like games. They're not the type to lie down and take this nonsense unlike some other subgroups of people. But that's bad apparently.
Why? People passionate about games are often very libertarian leaning. The gaming environment appeals to this sort of mindset almost by default. (Not to say conservatives aren't gamers as well, obviously.) Many gamers are open to dialogue with these culture critics, the critics aren't though. So why are they being "undignified" when they say, well **** off then. Let us play and ponder about this ourselves in peace. Let us tinker with these issues and progress organically without it being crammed down our throats.
I don't call that undignified, I call that passion. Sometimes that passion can express itself as kneejerk reactions or overly emotional reactions. But that's just part of passion, isn't it?

If both sides are at fault, I say approach it with fervor against both sides.

I tried that at first. But it's far easier to side with the gamers than corrupt gaming "journos" and intellectually dishonest arguments made by the "other side." Especially since one side is actually often far more welcoming than the other. Hint hint hint.

I don't write much about gaming, since that is an area I'm not as familiar in. But I can understand the need to standardize representation in gaming in the same manner and humor that the Bechdel Test has for film and tv, as well as to examine what may or may not be sexist tropes that mirror sexist attitudes IRL.

Speaking of the Bachdel Test, you know the feminist critics who lament about this and who do make games, often fail this very test themselves. So.........What am I to make of that? That these feminists are sexists themselves, or they don't care about these issues legitimately and simply want to bank off easily manipulated internet rage? I tend to lean towards the latter, personally.

I tend to think that it fuels performance when channeled expertly, and that any director worth his or her salt should be unafraid to see drama in their colleagues. It's part of the package along with inflated egos or self-loathing egos.

Hmm reminds me of Norton's character from Birdman.

Rage does not factor in all spheres on the internet. I don't expect it and I find it sad if I am expected to assume this is how people just are all over the internet. I expect better.

What quiet space have you found on the internet? I mean even on some educational videos you can see rage! Actually no rage sounds a little dull to me.

There are far far far more like me who live and let live. And who don't have to be Christina Hoff Summers to do that (which I find to be more of an apologist to MRA's and GamerGate than engage in feminist critique of culture...her critique is toward other feminists, so meh

Maybe. Why is she considered an apologist to the MRA's if I may ask?

Kindred spirits, alike, you and I are.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Are male ballet dancers and pole dancers expected to live up to the expectations of people who aren't even a major part of the consumer base?

All the time.

Are they expected the change their respective mediums so suit the sensibilities of the SJW crowd?

Overweight pole dancers? Male dancers in pointe shoes? We generally hear stuff like that and say YEAH LET'S DO IT and the backlash is from all sides, tbh. Even the "SJW"-types that irritate you.

Are they called evil because the majority usually have very toned physiques?

Oh we're evil, too sexualized, we shouldn't be around kids, we should grow up and get a "real" job, we can be blacklisted (which I've experienced for performing a dance about suicide in sexy lingerie to highlight the seductive power of suicidal thoughts.)

And they then expected to have people in the industry that are slightly overweight or just sort of average? Or do they ignore that as just nonsense and instead focus on their craft?

We would love to have more diversity... more black ballerinas, more older dancers over 40, more dancers without a limb, more deaf/blind dancers...It isn't nonsense.

No one is saying that games couldn't improve. No one is saying feminists and females alike shouldn't voice their concerns and get games catered to them. But when a dev does cater to these concerns, the very people they are trying to appease don't often seem to buy them. Why? Because the people with this "criticism" aren't actually consumers. Or if they are, it's never ****ing enough for them.

So what? Dance's biggest criticizers are woefully ignorant of the art and the industry. I'm not ready to indulge in some rage-fest and rally the dance troops into a war against our critics.

Linkle, for example, was practically a response calling for a female version of Link. Many gamers were happy with Linkle's design, her backstory and were excited to play as her. But fem frequency were all like, oh she's not on a major console. SEXISTS!!! Despite most female gamers, ie her fanbase presumably, being casual gamers. Which means they aren't normally console or PC gamers. Which is perfectly acceptable. But the devs are trying to target the demographic who called for this, specifically You know? Like normal business savvy people would?
But suddenly it's sexist because it's not on a major console. And ironically enough, many console/PC gamers seem perfectly happy to play the game regardless. So she will probably feature on a major console in the future anyway. This is why Anita is called a whiner. When something happens which she herself wanted in the first place, she finds something else to whine about almost immediately.
Bayonetta, for example, is enjoyed by many female gamers. Why? Because she's a tough, no nonsense, sarcastic witty strong woman. She's also a very powerful female sexual fantasy. But no, her boobage is catering to the "male gaze" and that's evil........for some reason. I mean granted she is often fan service-y in the first (haven't played the second, so I can't comment one way or the other about it) but often it seems like it's almost mocking that trait at the same time anyway. So..............

It's not even that gamers aren't okay with games being made for people's sensibilities. They're simply saying, leave other people's artistic freedom alone and make some yourself. Gamers tend to side with the artsy types. They expect that if someone has a problem with the way something is portrayed that that person will actively make a game that makes them happy. And that sort of approach is actually pretty respected in most circles I run in. I mean say what you will about the likes of Joss Whedon, for example, at least he has the balls to make his own art which appeals to his sensitivities. Instead of solely whining about other's work.
But even that is not enough. The Fine Young Capitalists, for example, a group who wanted to bring together exclusively female game devs to design games that they wanted to play, is instead attacked by these so called "culture critiques." Because.........Actually I have no idea why they were labelled sexists by the media and Quinn. So it's the hypocrisy of it all that really gets people's goats. (Why is that a saying?)

This is not criticism. Critique offers a dialogue if I'm not mistaken. And is intellectually honest. At least it's expected to be. This is whiny rad fems trying to foist their extremist version of PC sensibilities onto normal people who just want to be left alone. And often these types of issues aren't organically presented in games. They're shoehorned in. Which is bound to get a reaction from gamers because it's like the landscape is being forced to change artistically (which brings about fears of artistic repression) and they're not done well. Which is probably the biggest crime of all. You know when you see a movie and you can tell it's done by a group of execs trying to appeal to focus groups instead of telling a story? That's what it feels like when these issues are thrown in to appease these idiots. It's not organic, it doesn't enhance the storytelling and it's seems stifling to honest creativity.
So they fought back against this specifically because gamers like a challenge and they like games. They're not the type to lie down and take this nonsense unlike some other subgroups of people. But that's bad apparently.
Why? People passionate about games are often very libertarian leaning. The gaming environment appeals to this sort of mindset almost by default. (Not to say conservatives aren't gamers as well, obviously.) Many gamers are open to dialogue with these culture critics, the critics aren't though. So why are they being "undignified" when they say, well **** off then. Let us play and ponder about this ourselves in peace. Let us tinker with these issues and progress organically without it being crammed down our throats.
I don't call that undignified, I call that passion. Sometimes that passion can express itself as kneejerk reactions or overly emotional reactions. But that's just part of passion, isn't it?

I call it undignified at best, abusive, reactive, and criminal at worst. Everyone will have critics. I have critics. I accept I will have critics. They're not worth my stomach acid. I do not accept I have harassers. Gaming is mainstream and is susceptible to social and cultural criticism simply because it's a victim of its own massive success. Accept that it will have critics and stop being such pieces of rage-filled jerks against critics regardless of how annoying they are. If they're so libertarian, then libertarians collectively wish they were the Hulk when they get angry, apparently.

I tried that at first. But it's far easier to side with the gamers than corrupt gaming "journos" and intellectually dishonest arguments made by the "other side." Especially since one side is actually often far more welcoming than the other. Hint hint hint.

You and I have had very different experiences.

Speaking of the Bachdel Test, you know the feminist critics who lament about this and who do make games, often fail this very test themselves. So.........What am I to make of that? That these feminists are sexists themselves, or they don't care about these issues legitimately and simply want to bank off easily manipulated internet rage? I tend to lean towards the latter, personally.

What do you mean feminist critics fail the Bechdel Test ourselves? It's a litmus test of female representation in media entertainment. What examples of feminists failing the test ourselves are there?

What quiet space have you found on the internet? I mean even on some educational videos you can see rage! Actually no rage sounds a little dull to me.

Step away from tumblr, Roosh V, subreddit, and 4chan.

Maybe. Why is she considered an apologist to the MRA's if I may ask?

She speaks and supports all their talking points, all their anti-feminist arguments, and calls herself a "real" feminist (and her supporters call her a "real" feminist because she sh***s on women and feminists enough. But I'm just speaking from my own POV.

 

[SomeRandom]

Overweight pole dancers? Male dancers in pointe shoes? We generally hear stuff like that and say YEAH LET'S DO IT and the backlash is from all sides, tbh. Even the "SJW"-types that irritate you.

Well that's why they irritate me. You go out of your way to appease them and they lambaste you for it either way. And it's like, either have something constructive to say or just STFU entirely.

We would love to have more diversity... more black ballerinas, more older dancers over 40, more dancers without a limb, more deaf/blind dancers...It isn't nonsense.

I'm not saying diversity is nonsense. Honesty I would be quite intrigued to see a person without arms, for example, do a dance routine.
I'm saying the practice of the ideologues voicing these identity politics is. And hypocritical to boot.
I mean you've got people saying, you need to be more inclusive of races/cultures. And when the devs do exactly that, suddenly they're "appropriating culture." Which as a person from two cultures I see as utter nonsense. I mean there's insulting/denigrating culture, but not every exchange, even some of the ignorant ones are necessarily insulting or degrading. But whatever. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If these critics want the industry to change, they could have the decency to be consistent. Maybe then gamers would be more prone to listening to them.

Oh we're evil, too sexualized, we shouldn't be around kids, we should grow up and get a "real" job, we can be blacklisted (which I've experienced for performing a dance about suicide in sexy lingerie to highlight the seductive power of suicidal thoughts.)

Ohh that dance performance sounds interesting.

So what? Dance's biggest criticizers are woefully ignorant of the art and the industry. I'm not ready to indulge in some rage-fest and rally the dance troops into a war against our critics.

Why not? If they can actively affect and change your art and industry? Well they can in games. We fight because we're fighters. Someone slanders us, we will defend ourselves. Someone attacks our hobby we will defend it. Because we want what's best for our games.
Ignorant non consumers telling companies what to sell on the market is not tolerated and will face backlash. Why the **** not? I do the same for my other passions. Books for example. On the internet "bookworms" "bookies" etc are often as harsh when fighting against what they perceive as threats to the industry. Sometimes inane stuff (like the ****storm surrounding Twilight/50 Shades) sometimes calling out ****ty practices. But at least the critics in the book world do address their points and for the most part there's a legitimate dialogue. You have less frustration that way.

So I don't think this is a ragefest at all (granted there's a few rage filled voices among it.) I see it as just a growing frustration of being ignored by the people who claim to speak on their behalf on their interests. It's trying to get the other side of the argument heard when it's outright ignored by everyone and to try to get an actual honest dialogue happening with these "concerned critics." A few troll messages (which are called out by the movement. just saying) is just how the internet rolls. The feminists labelled it a rage fest, without solid proof may I add, clearly showing they don't know how trolling works.

Having said that, I still consider #gamergate ****ing stupid. Though again, I agree that there's a lack of transparency of the Journos and the mainstream gaming media often seem pretty ****ing seedy.
I mean I think most suspected the journos were in bed with the devs long before "Quinspiracy" anyway. So I can see why that would be the straw that broke the camel's back instead of the seemingly random instigation of an "online hate mob" like the news often paints it as.
Which is why YouTube gaming channels offering reviews became popular. Honest opinions by actual gamers without (mostly) anti journalistic sentiments.

I call it undignified at best, abusive, reactive, and criminal at worst. Everyone will have critics. I have critics. I accept I will have critics. They're not worth my stomach acid. I do not accept I have harassers. Gaming is mainstream and is susceptible to social and cultural criticism simply because it's a victim of its own massive success. Accept that it will have critics and stop being such pieces of rage-filled jerks against critics regardless of how annoying they are. If they're so libertarian, then libertarians collectively wish they were the Hulk when they get angry, apparently.

When it rages against people calling their games baby toys or comedians mocking them, I agree. Even prominent (actually respected) gaming channels facepalm at such stupidity and rage.
I agree that many gamers are over reactionary and far too rage filled. Especially on the internet. This "culture war" has ruffled up their feathers and they're on the defensive. But how do you ignore these culture "critics"? We did that already. All it did was allow them a foothold in the industry which led to them having a pretty influence on it. So **** it, they want come after our hobby, they want to slander our fellow gamers, then we will stand against them.

I mean this is the internet. There's going to be some quite dark stuff in response to this sort of "war."
I can accept poo flinging from both sides. That's just how it is. Unfortunately. The escalations are just the internet being the internet. Doxxing and Swatting though usually seem to cross the line for most people, even those like me who have long been desensitized to some of the dark harshness of the web. Which is why both sides do accuse the other of it and you get people pissed off by such actions.

You and I have had very different experiences.

So it would seem.

What do you mean feminist critics fail the Bechdel Test ourselves? It's a litmus test of female representation in media entertainment. What examples of feminists failing the test ourselves are there?

How about when Fem Frequency blasted Bayonnetta but seems to like the Scithian character from Sword and Sourcery?
I mean perhaps I'm just misinterpreting the Bachdel test?
Bayonnetta seems okay to me. She's got a strong personality, she kicks *** and she does what she wants. Scithian is a blank slate. Boring.
How is it that a blank self insert character passes but a strong independent woman (who quite literally saves the world) fails?
Granted they probably didn't actually play the game because the site was under the impression that the young girl was Bayonetta's daughter. (And you wonder why people are upset that this is the face of gaming critique. A little research wouldn't kill them.)

But still. I don't understand.

Step away from tumblr, Roosh V, subreddit, and 4chan.

Don't go on Tumblr at all, don't know what Roosh V is, don't even Reddit let alone subreddit, and as for 4 Chan. Ehhh. They pretend to be subhuman ********, but they're actually not so bad really. They supported The Fine Young Capitalists (you know? Those sexists who wanted to organize a bunch of female gaming devs to create female friendly games?) Having said that, haven't been there in over 4 years. So........

She speaks and supports all their talking points, all their anti-feminist arguments, and calls herself a "real" feminist (and her supporters call her a "real" feminist because she sh***s on women and feminists enough. But I'm just speaking from my own POV.

That's fair.
But how does she **** on women? I know she's highly critical of feminism, especially what's known as "fainting couch feminism." But I haven't seen her **** on women yet. Maybe I'm not looking at the right vid.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Well that's why they irritate me. You go out of your way to appease them and they lambaste you for it either way. And it's like, either have something constructive to say or just STFU entirely.

Critique is not meant to be appeased or catered to. No feminist that I know of has ever felt this way (and to point out again I've known and been active with a ton of feminists of all stripes in my decades of feminism). Critique is an observation. Take it or leave it, but don't conflate it to be a power trip and don't dismiss it as the rants of ill informed people if one wants to keep a dialogue running.

And if you're going to to tell feminists to STFU, be ready to tell everyone to STFU. And that's not going to go over well.

I'm not saying diversity is nonsense. Honesty I would be quite intrigued to see a person without arms, for example, do a dance routine.
I'm saying the practice of the ideologues voicing these identity politics is. And hypocritical to boot.
I mean you've got people saying, you need to be more inclusive of races/cultures. And when the devs do exactly that, suddenly they're "appropriating culture." Which as a person from two cultures I see as utter nonsense. I mean there's insulting/denigrating culture, but not every exchange, even some of the ignorant ones are necessarily insulting or degrading. But whatever. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. If these critics want the industry to change, they could have the decency to be consistent. Maybe then gamers would be more prone to listening to them.

This isn't a front or military battle where people must choose a side against another group of people, for heavens sake. If feminist critics over a spectrum see one problem on one end, and other critics see another problem on another end, that's not indicative of inconsistency or a lack of decency. That's simply a range of perspectives being presented. Agree or disagree. Some will see sexism, and some will see sexism and racism, and some will see sexism and biphobia, etc.

Ohh that dance performance sounds interesting.

It was. I felt honored to perform it. Then the local paper ran an editorial that season on the degradation of the arts, why the dance scene was struggling, why dancers aren't finding regular performance work, and pointed at me as the culprit for how everything is bad in the world and St Louis can't have nice things. Remember...America.

Why not? If they can actively affect and change your art and industry? Well they can in games. We fight because we're fighters. Someone slanders us, we will defend ourselves. Someone attacks our hobby we will defend it. Because we want what's best for our games.
Ignorant non consumers telling companies what to sell on the market is not tolerated and will face backlash. Why the **** not? I do the same for my other passions. Books for example. On the internet "bookworms" "bookies" etc are often as harsh when fighting against what they perceive as threats to the industry. Sometimes inane stuff (like the ****storm surrounding Twilight/50 Shades) sometimes calling out ****ty practices. But at least the critics in the book world do address their points and for the most part there's a legitimate dialogue. You have less frustration that way.

So I don't think this is a ragefest at all (granted there's a few rage filled voices among it.) I see it as just a growing frustration of being ignored by the people who claim to speak on their behalf on their interests. It's trying to get the other side of the argument heard when it's outright ignored by everyone and to try to get an actual honest dialogue happening with these "concerned critics." A few troll messages (which are called out by the movement. just saying) is just how the internet rolls. The feminists labelled it a rage fest, without solid proof may I add, clearly showing they don't know how trolling works.

I don't buy it. And I'm throwing down the gauntlet here...I'm an administrator on RF, and had years of activity as a moderator here, and I'm confident I know what constitutes trolling. If there's bullying and harassment, I don't care what history says about any community, it should not be tolerated, regardless of how irritating or misinformed ones critics are.

Jeez, we have a sizable group of people who hate feminism here at RF. And I among others are convinced the critics are woefully misinformed and are blatantly perpetuating myths that have been debunked time and time again...but I and the mod staff would not tolerate bullying and harassment from other side here.

Feminism is of course open to criticism. Good criticism and horrible s****y criticism. Not HERE in the dir forums, but here at RF. And guess what...so is gaming. Constructive or not, any movement or cultural practice is susceptible to criticism. And if one is part of an open forum that disallows harassment, that goes for everyone. Full stop.

Having said that, I still consider #gamergate ****ing stupid. Though again, I agree that there's a lack of transparency of the Journos and the mainstream gaming media often seem pretty ****ing seedy.
I mean I think most suspected the journos were in bed with the devs long before "Quinspiracy" anyway. So I can see why that would be the straw that broke the camel's back instead of the seemingly random instigation of an "online hate mob" like the news often paints it as.
Which is why YouTube gaming channels offering reviews became popular. Honest opinions by actual gamers without (mostly) anti journalistic sentiments.

More power to them. Now let's stop the death threats and the rape threats.

When it rages against people calling their games baby toys or comedians mocking them, I agree. Even prominent (actually respected) gaming channels facepalm at such stupidity and rage.
I agree that many gamers are over reactionary and far too rage filled. Especially on the internet. This "culture war" has ruffled up their feathers and they're on the defensive. But how do you ignore these culture "critics"? We did that already. All it did was allow them a foothold in the industry which led to them having a pretty influence on it. So **** it, they want come after our hobby, they want to slander our fellow gamers, then we will stand against them.

I mean this is the internet. There's going to be some quite dark stuff in response to this sort of "war."
I can accept poo flinging from both sides. That's just how it is. Unfortunately. The escalations are just the internet being the internet. Doxxing and Swatting though usually seem to cross the line for most people, even those like me who have long been desensitized to some of the dark harshness of the web. Which is why both sides do accuse the other of it and you get people pissed off by such actions.

I don't know about you, but I speak out against such actions and don't accept it as an expected or justified reaction. Act like a damn human being, folks.

How about when Fem Frequency blasted Bayonnetta but seems to like the Scithian character from Sword and Sourcery?
I mean perhaps I'm just misinterpreting the Bachdel test?
Bayonnetta seems okay to me. She's got a strong personality, she kicks *** and she does what she wants. Scithian is a blank slate. Boring.
How is it that a blank self insert character passes but a strong independent woman (who quite literally saves the world) fails?
Granted they probably didn't actually play the game because the site was under the impression that the young girl was Bayonetta's daughter. (And you wonder why people are upset that this is the face of gaming critique. A little research wouldn't kill them.)

But still. I don't understand.

Yeah the Bechdel Test is not what you think. Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

Don't go on Tumblr at all, don't know what Roosh V is, don't even Reddit let alone subreddit, and as for 4 Chan. Ehhh. They pretend to be subhuman ********, but they're actually not so bad really. They supported The Fine Young Capitalists (you know? Those sexists who wanted to organize a bunch of female gaming devs to create female friendly games?) Having said that, haven't been there in over 4 years. So........

I thought you were familiar with tumblr feminists.

If 4chan pretend to be subhuman ********, why is anyone surprised that people find them to be subhuman ******** then?

That's fair.
But how does she **** on women? I know she's highly critical of feminism, especially what's known as "fainting couch feminism." But I haven't seen her **** on women yet. Maybe I'm not looking at the right vid.

I find the write up about her on rational wiki to parallel how I have found her to be: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers

 

[SomeRandom]

Critique is not meant to be appeased or catered to. No feminist that I know of has ever felt this way (and to point out again I've known and been active with a ton of feminists of all stripes in my decades of feminism). Critique is an observation. Take it or leave it, but don't conflate it to be a power trip and don't dismiss it as the rants of ill informed people if one wants to keep a dialogue running.

Well why do companies cave to the critique then? Again, this is not from the actual consumer base, which would make sense, this is often because of the backlash from the loudest of the
"anti gamer gaters."

I mean good God, AC Syndicate had a female main protagonist, a cross dresser implied to be a pre op (obviously) transsexual and a black guy in the game. True Ubisoft is shady as **** and true they weren't handled the best they could be, but they were there. Nope, not enough representation. They can't "hide behind the fantasy" excuse. There was more than one black guy in 1800s England so it should have represented that. It's problematic and indicative of sexism?
Meanwhile AC fans are like, oh push your politics somewhere else please. The Assassin's Creed Universe has never really looked down upon a woman, unless it was some dialogue espoused by a random NPC representing the attitudes of their time. And we don't care if everyone is black or white or multicolored. There are games for the more hardcore fans to play as ****** women already. So let's talk about something actually relevant to the franchise. Like AC fatigue and how to get the series back on track. Or maybe it should disappear for a while? And the hell is up with the present tense narrative? It's basically become almost useless after 3.

I mean I can see both points of view, but as an AC fan, yeah, I sort of push aside the politics. It's sort of last on my list of concerns for the franchise right now.

And if you're going to to tell feminists to STFU, be ready to tell everyone to STFU. And that's not going to go over well.

I didn't say feminists, I said SJWs. I knew they were kind of linked, didn't know they went literally hand in hand?

This isn't a front or military battle where people must choose a side against another group of people, for heavens sake. If feminist critics over a spectrum see one problem on one end, and other critics see another problem on another end, that's not indicative of inconsistency or a lack of decency. That's simply a range of perspectives being presented. Agree or disagree. Some will see sexism, and some will see sexism and racism, and some will see sexism and biphobia, etc.

And what of those who DON'T see sexism or whatever? Oh right, they're sock puppets, never mind.
**** the minority voices in #notyourshield. They don't matter.
Nope, not a backlash of those tired of being deprived a voice by radical SJWs and their hand wringing. Or simply neutrals who want this stupidity to stop infecting games and/or games media and just go back to games. Nope. Not at all.

I don't buy it. And I'm throwing down the gauntlet here...I'm an administrator on RF, and had years of activity as a moderator here, and I'm confident I know what constitutes trolling. If there's bullying and harassment, I don't care what history says about any community, it should not be tolerated, regardless of how irritating or misinformed ones critics are.

Jeez, we have a sizable group of people who hate feminism here at RF. And I among others are convinced the critics are woefully misinformed and are blatantly perpetuating myths that have been debunked time and time again...but I and the mod staff would not tolerate bullying and harassment from other side here.

Feminism is of course open to criticism. Good criticism and horrible s****y criticism. Not HERE in the dir forums, but here at RF. And guess what...so is gaming. Constructive or not, any movement or cultural practice is susceptible to criticism. And if one is part of an open forum that disallows harassment, that goes for everyone. Full stop.

You do know that the entire thing basically started as a hashtag movement, right?
This forum is probably easier to moderate than Twitter on a good day, let alone some stupid hashtag movement at it's peak. I mean the very fact that it was supposedly "centered" around some sex scandal just begged for trolls to come to it.
Besides I doubt many or even any "pro GG" people were moderators for bloody Twitter anyway. All they could really do is report such behavior and call it out. Which many did.
And I assume that once the mods caught up to them, the harassers/trolls faced some disciplinary action.

I was referring to News Reports which paraded these troll messages (many not even using the hashtag, which leads one to suspect it was just garden variety trolling a public figure receives almost by default) as a "true" representation of the entire movement. Which is why I said they probably don't know how trolling works. Because if one were to go by the reports, they don't. Or they're just being intellectually dishonest.

I don't think the feminists I have run afoul represent the entirety of the movement (sorry if you think I said such.) I just find some of their actions confusing and sometimes alienating.

More power to them. Now let's stop the death threats and the rape threats.

They're not moderators like you, mate. They can only report and call out such awfulness. Many prominent "Pro GGs" do this and have been doing this already.
Unfortunately unless you're on specific forums, or maybe at High School, I don't know how you can stop death/rape threats on the internet. Again, that's just the internet being the internet.

Yeah the Bechdel Test is not what you think. Here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test

Well then my apologies for being so ill informed. Still, according to that definition, Bayonnetta passes the test anyway. So..........Does that mean Fem Freq don't know the Bachdel test either?

I thought you were familiar with tumblr feminists.

I am. Why do you think I avoid tumblr in the first place?
You think I can discuss or even post any of my interests and opinions about these sorts of things with those peeps running around? No thank you, I value my life.

If 4chan pretend to be subhuman ********, why is anyone surprised that people find them to be subhuman ******** then?

When did I say that I was surprised that anyone found them to be ********?
I said they weren't actually THAT bad, contrary to their "appearance," so to speak.
(Random question, since you're a mod. Why does this site not censor the word "********" which is a common insult. But it censors the word bad ***, which is used to describe something awesome or used as a complement? Are you guys just not "down with the lingo" or something?)

I find the write up about her on rational wiki to parallel how I have found her to be: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers

Well fair enough.
I happen to side with her, (mostly) but that's just my opinion.
Sidenote, that rationalwiki entry seems to have been toned down since I last viewed it a while back. Good for rationalwiki.

 

[LuisDantas]

*** Thread moved to Political Debates ***​