The failure of Intelligent Design

[ImmortalFlame]

"Instead of finding the gradual unfolding of life,” says evolutionary paleontologist David M. Raup, “what geologists of Darwin’s time, and geologists of the present day actually find is a highly uneven or jerky record; that is, species appear in the sequence very suddenly, show little or no change during their existence in the record, then abruptly go out of the record.”
Is paleontologist David Raup flat out lying. Is he dishonest to suggest otherwise?

He's not dishonest, you are. David M. Raup accepts evolution theory. What he is saying in this extract is that what we see in the fossil record is punctuated equilibrium. He is not saying anything remotely like what you are implying that he is saying, and for you to take his words out of context to try and present him a supporter of your beliefs - which he categorically is not - is proof of your dishonesty and lack of integrity. If your beliefs were correct, you would not need to stoop to such tactics, and you should examine yourself very carefully to determine just why you have to lie so blatantly in order to support your own beliefs.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part1-2.html
On a Common Creationist Quotation of Dr. David M. Raup

 

[McBell]

Either life was created by an intelligent Designer, as the Bible says, or all life arose by evolution.

Not only is this a false dichotomy, but it is also factually incorrect.
Evolution is not about the beginning of life.
But you already know that...

Once you dispel the propaganda smoke and examine the evidence for yourself, the evidence for Creation is overwhelming, and the evidence for macroevolution lacking, IMO.

Nice.
Now try honest research instead of ratification.

 

[McBell]

You are wrong in saying the Bible doesn't say how God created man. The scriptures I quoted show this. And while the Bible is not a science book, it is, I believe, as Jesus said "the truth." (John 17:17) Calling something "science" doesn't make it true. The evidence in nature supports Creation, not evolution.

Calling something "gods word" doesn't make it true.
The evidence indicates evolution is correct.
The lack of evidence for creation shows creation to be nothing more than wishful thinking.

 

[rusra02]

And since Rusra02 said Dr. Raup is telling the truth, we shouldn't have any doubt anymore about evolution to be true.

Dr. Raup also said:


Ouch... Dr. Raup is telling the truth, the fossil record shows changes and differences.

And again, Rusra told us to trust this guy, so he must be right, evolution is true according to him and the fossil record shows the changes and support the science.

You certainly are free and easy when it comes to telling the truth, aren't you?
For those interested in the truth, note again Dr. Raup's words carefully:"This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question."
"Evolution" is a squirmy, smarmy word, IMO, and calling any change "evolution" is misleading at best and fraudulent at any point less than best. And trying to credit another with things they never said is downright dishonest.

 

[rusra02]

He's not dishonest, you are. David M. Raup accepts evolution theory. What he is saying in this extract is that what we see in the fossil record is punctuated equilibrium. He is not saying anything remotely like what you are implying that he is saying, and for you to take his words out of context to try and present him a supporter of your beliefs - which he categorically is not - is proof of your dishonesty and lack of integrity. If your beliefs were correct, you would not need to stoop to such tactics, and you should examine yourself very carefully to determine just why you have to lie so blatantly in order to support your own beliefs.

Quote Mine Project: "Sudden Appearance and Stasis"
On a Common Creationist Quotation of Dr. David M. Raup

Anyone can read Dr. Raup's remarks for themselves and decide what he said and meant. Nor did I "try and present him a supporter" of my beliefs. I simply quoted him to show that evolutionists dishonestly, even fraudulently claim the fossil record supports evolution, and as Dr. Raup pointed out, it does no such thing, at least not macro-evolution. I am sorry if that truth stings, but making personal attacks on me won't change it. Sadly, personal attacks seem to be all the rage among many evolutionists today.

 

[Bunyip]

You certainly are free and easy when it comes to telling the truth, aren't you?
For those interested in the truth, note again Dr. Raup's words carefully:"This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question."
"Evolution" is a squirmy, smarmy word, IMO, and calling any change "evolution" is misleading at best and fraudulent at any point less than best. And trying to credit another with things they never said is downright dishonest.

Sure, but that is what science teaches, that doesn't conflict with the Theory of Evolution at all. The fossil record DOES just deminstrate that evolution has occured, but does not tell is how.

How is it that you think he is challenging the non-creationist view on evolution?

 

[rusra02]

Not only is this a false dichotomy, but it is also factually incorrect.
Evolution is not about the beginning of life.
But you already know that...



Nice.
Now try honest research instead of ratification.

I think you need to reread what I posted. Evolution does claim all life arose by evolution from a single-celled organism.

 

[Bunyip]

I think you need to reread what I posted. Evolution does claim all life arose by evolution from a single-celled organism.

No it does not I'm afraid. Evolution does not claim that at all, it is just an inference - a hypothesis. That all life evolved from a common ancestor is a plausible possibility, but not something that evolutionary biologists claim to have proven.

 

[rusra02]

Calling something "gods word" doesn't make it true.
The evidence indicates evolution is correct.
The lack of evidence for creation shows creation to be nothing more than wishful thinking.

Calling something "gods word" doesn't make it true. - I agree but you missed the point of the post
The evidence indicates evolution is correct.- I disagree, of course
The lack of evidence for creation shows creation to be nothing more than wishful thinking. As Romans 1:20 states: God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny creation] are inexcusable." Anyone with eyes unblinded by the ToE can see the evidence all around them.

 

[rusra02]

No it does not I'm afraid. Evolution does not claim that at all, it is just an inference - a hypothesis. That all life evolved from a common ancestor is a plausible possibility, but not something that evolutionary biologists claim to have proven.

You are picking fly crap out of pepper, IMO. Whatever you call what they claim, they do so claim.

 

[fantome profane]

No it does not I'm afraid. Evolution does not claim that at all, it is just an inference - a hypothesis. That all life evolved from a common ancestor is a plausible possibility, but not something that evolutionary biologists claim to have proven.

No, rusa02 is actually right on this one. (even a broken clock is right twice a day)

Part of the theory of evolution is that all live evolved from a common single celled ancestor. And this is more than just a mere hypothesis. It is a scientific theory, an overarching framework that can explain a multitude of observable phenomena. And there is a huge amount of evidence that supports this theory.

 

[Ouroboros]

You certainly are free and easy when it comes to telling the truth, aren't you?
For those interested in the truth, note again Dr. Raup's words carefully:"This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred if we define evolution simply as change; but it does not tell us how this change too place, and that is really the question."
"Evolution" is a squirmy, smarmy word, IMO, and calling any change "evolution" is misleading at best and fraudulent at any point less than best. And trying to credit another with things they never said is downright dishonest.

"Simply as" means "not just as" in this quote.

Evolution does not just mean "simply" change. It means more than that.

The fossil record does not tell us how it happened, only that it did happen. (Read what he said again).

Based on genetics and research, that's how we figure out how it happened.

That it did happen we know from the fossil record because it does show change.

Read what he said again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred."

Again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

And again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

And one more time for the road: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

Which means that Dr Raup totally, fully, wholeheartedly, and with all his spirit and soul supports that the fossil record shows that Evolution DID happen. It clearly demonstrates that evolution occurred.

You told us to trust this guy, and I trust him when he says that the fossil record clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred. Are you denying his words now?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Anyone can read Dr. Raup's remarks for themselves and decide what he said and meant.

Including you, which is why your blatant attempt to lie about him makes you dishonest. If you had read what he was actually saying, you would know that he is not saying what you are suggesting.

Nor did I "try and present him a supporter" of my beliefs. I simply quoted him to show that evolutionists dishonestly, even fraudulently claim the fossil record supports evolution, and as Dr. Raup pointed out, it does no such thing, at least not macro-evolution.

Flat-out lie.

David M. Raup does support evolution, and I clearly explained and provided links proving that he was talking about punctuated equilibrium, and was categorically NOT saying "the fossil record doesn't support evolution".

If you are going to persist in a lie after it has already been explained to you and proven to be a lie, then you seriously need to take me up on my suggestion of a thorough and careful self-examination. You are lying, and until you either admit to it or correct yourself, your input in this debate can be considered nothing more than a cheap attempt to poison the well.

 

[McBell]

Calling something "gods word" doesn't make it true. - I agree but you missed the point of the post
The evidence indicates evolution is correct.- I disagree, of course
The lack of evidence for creation shows creation to be nothing more than wishful thinking. As Romans 1:20 states: God's "invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they [who deny creation] are inexcusable." Anyone with eyes unblinded by the ToE can see the evidence all around them.

The Bible is not evidence for creation.
Nice try though.

Thinking about it, it seems are you do not know the difference between bold emtpy claim and evidence.
You might want to look that up.

 

[outhouse]

For those interested in the truth

.

I suggest going to any credible college.


Where biology is fact, and evolution is not debated by biased theist, who actually know very little of their own religion

 

[rusra02]

"Simply as" means "not just as" in this quote.

Evolution does not just mean "simply" change. It means more than that.

The fossil record does not tell us how it happened, only that it did happen. (Read what he said again).

Based on genetics and research, that's how we figure out how it happened.

That it did happen we know from the fossil record because it does show change.

Read what he said again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred."

Again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

And again: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

And one more time for the road: "This record of change pretty clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred"

Which means that Dr Raup totally, fully, wholeheartedly, and with all his spirit and soul supports that the fossil record shows that Evolution DID happen. It clearly demonstrates that evolution occurred.

You told us to trust this guy, and I trust him when he says that the fossil record clearly demonstrates that evolution has occurred. Are you denying his words now?

I think any interested person can read the posts for themselves and decide what was said and by whom.

 

[rusra02]

Including you, which is why your blatant attempt to lie about him makes you dishonest. If you had read what he was actually saying, you would know that he is not saying what you are suggesting.


Flat-out lie.

David M. Raup does support evolution, and I clearly explained and provided links proving that he was talking about punctuated equilibrium, and was categorically NOT saying "the fossil record doesn't support evolution".

If you are going to persist in a lie after it has already been explained to you and proven to be a lie, then you seriously need to take me up on my suggestion of a thorough and careful self-examination. You are lying, and until you either admit to it or correct yourself, your input in this debate can be considered nothing more than a cheap attempt to poison the well.

And when did I say Dr. Raup did not support evolution? But I do understand how quoting his comments about the fossil record elicit such personal attacks. If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. Typical for some evolutionists in this forum, IMO. (Romans 3:4)

 

[rusra02]

The Bible is not evidence for creation.
Nice try though.

Thinking about it, it seems are you do not know the difference between bold emtpy claim and evidence.
You might want to look that up.

The Bible shows the evidence for creation; "the things made". The insistent shout of the smallest cell to the largest galaxy is "elegant design, unfathomable complexity, surpassing intelligence, a grand Creator." A whole field of science has developed to study the brilliant design ideas in living creatures, and copy those designs to improve products and processes. At the same time, many arrogantly deny the existence of the One responsible for these creations, so wonderfully made. (Psalm 10:4) It is evolution that makes bold empty claims, not the Bible, IMO.

 

[rusra02]

I suggest going to any credible college.


Where biology is fact, and evolution is not debated by biased theist, who actually know very little of their own religion

Yes, we wouldn't want anyone to hear anything other then the evolutionary party line, would we? Little wonder that academics and scientists that dare even mention Intelligent Design do so at the risk of their careers and livelihood.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And when did I say Dr. Raup did not support evolution?

See above, emphasis mine:

I simply quoted him to show that evolutionists dishonestly, even fraudulently claim the fossil record supports evolution, and as Dr. Raup pointed out, it does no such thing, at least not macro-evolution.

That is categorically NOT what Dr. Raup is saying in those quotations you made of him. He DOES believe that the fossil record supports evolution, he just holds the view of punctuated equilibrium rather than the classical gradualistic view of evolution. Both views hold that all life evolved from a common ancestor.

You are now lying about lying. Well done.

But I do understand how quoting his comments about the fossil record elicit such personal attacks. If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger. Typical for some evolutionists in this forum, IMO. (Romans 3:4)

And when you can't admit to lying, you just act as if it is the people accusing you who are in the wrong.

Rusra, you have been caught lying. Dr. Raup does not hold the position that the fossil record doesn't support evolution - AS YOU HAVE STATED - and his quotations do not even remotely suggest that he does -AS YOU HAVE STATED. These are lies, and I will not back down until you admit to the falsehoods you have committed and show some intellectual honesty. Or, are you not even capable of that?