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The failure of the Left and what the Far-Right gets right.

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Honestly, I do think the left and the center have failed to address certain key things that are more to the fore in far-right ideologies.

Far-right ideologies, especially ethnic nationalist, tribalist, radical traditionalist, national anarchist, folkish religion (especially folkish Paganism, since Christianity is fast in decline in the West and even among the far-right), etc. tend to take a mythic view of humanity and the world at large. This appeals to the part of humanity that loves myth, symbols, grand archetypes, etc. They have a vision of returning to a wonderful, simpler past based around community, tradition and cohesive culture. They stand in opposition to out of control capitalism which is ravaging our species, other species and the planet itself. They are against the alienation of the modern world, which has wrecked the family unit (over 100 years ago or so, most of us were living more rural lives with both our immediate and extended family), resulted in mental illness (depression and other psychological afflictions are at epidemic levels) and turned us into dog eat dog slaves that spend our lives working menial jobs we hate for a pittance and then we die lonely and unfulfilled on an existential level. They recognize these things as problems and propose solutions to them. They view the modern world as degraded and decadent. They view our general malaise and the coming catastrophes in spiritual terms, primarily. They also have a Heroic view of man. This provides emotional satisfaction. They embrace the irrational and the Jungian. Their views on their enemies may be simplistic and even disgusting, but their ideologies are effective. There's a reason why they go on the upswing when the left has become decrepit and cannot capture the spirit of the age.

The left, on the other hand, tends to take a purely rationalist approach, viewing humans as resources or automatons of a sort. (I'm generalizing, of course, because you have genetic determinists on the right and am mainly thinking of Marxism with that.) There isn't room or much talk about the mythic aspect of humans and how important it is to our psychological well-being as a species. Most things are viewed in terms of class, and in empirical terms. Then you have the so-called "SJWs", who are mostly white middle to upper-class and college educated and most people simply cannot relate to that demographic, from poor inner city people to hicks in the sticks. (Even in my relatively progressive city, we have luxury condos right across the street from homeless shelters. These people are living in another world entirely and are seemingly oblivious to it.)

How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Hey Frank,
It's an interesting topic, and I have a few thoughts, but can I start with a very small question?
Why did you include the 'left and the center' in your opening statement?

I'm not (at least for now) suggesting you're wrong, just trying to understand the rationale.
I'll try and have a think on how to respond to the larger picture at the same time.
Cheers!
 

Electus de Lumine

Magician of Light
Honestly, I do think the left and the center have failed to address certain key things that are more to the fore in far-right ideologies.

Far-right ideologies, especially ethnic nationalist, tribalist, radical traditionalist, national anarchist, folkish religion (especially folkish Paganism, since Christianity is fast in decline in the West and even among the far-right), etc. tend to take a mythic view of humanity and the world at large. This appeals to the part of humanity that loves myth, symbols, grand archetypes, etc. They have a vision of returning to a wonderful, simpler past based around community, tradition and cohesive culture. They stand in opposition to out of control capitalism which is ravaging our species, other species and the planet itself. They are against the alienation of the modern world, which has wrecked the family unit (over 100 years ago or so, most of us were living more rural lives with both our immediate and extended family), resulted in mental illness (depression and other psychological afflictions are at epidemic levels) and turned us into dog eat dog slaves that spend our lives working menial jobs we hate for a pittance and then we die lonely and unfulfilled on an existential level. They recognize these things as problems and propose solutions to them. They view the modern world as degraded and decadent. They view our general malaise and the coming catastrophes in spiritual terms, primarily. They also have a Heroic view of man. This provides emotional satisfaction. They embrace the irrational and the Jungian. Their views on their enemies may be simplistic and even disgusting, but their ideologies are effective. There's a reason why they go on the upswing when the left has become decrepit and cannot capture the spirit of the age.

The left, on the other hand, tends to take a purely rationalist approach, viewing humans as resources or automatons of a sort. (I'm generalizing, of course, because you have genetic determinists on the right and am mainly thinking of Marxism with that.) There isn't room or much talk about the mythic aspect of humans and how important it is to our psychological well-being as a species. Most things are viewed in terms of class, and in empirical terms. Then you have the so-called "SJWs", who are mostly white middle to upper-class and college educated and most people simply cannot relate to that demographic, from poor inner city people to hicks in the sticks. (Even in my relatively progressive city, we have luxury condos right across the street from homeless shelters. These people are living in another world entirely and are seemingly oblivious to it.)

How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.

So let me get these straight.

The far-right is better because they sometimes manipulates symbols to control people rather than give good arguments?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Hey Frank,
It's an interesting topic, and I have a few thoughts, but can I start with a very small question?
Why did you include the 'left and the center' in your opening statement?

I'm not (at least for now) suggesting you're wrong, just trying to understand the rationale.
I'll try and have a think on how to respond to the larger picture at the same time.
Cheers!
I'm just comparing and contrasting certain aspects of political ideologies and how some seem to be more satisfying on a primal level than others, even if they include ugliness, falsities and derangement.

For example, when I was a neo-fascist/neo-Nazi, the rallies of the far-right movements of the '30s and '40s had me in thrall. There was a religious attraction and power there that is missing from far-leftist movements and even progressive movements, as well with the classical liberalism that they are descended from (which seems to be dying out in the US, at least, as the zeitgeist becomes increasingly polarized).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
So let me get these straight.

The far-right is better because they sometimes manipulates symbols to control people rather than give good arguments?
I didn't say they're better in general, just that they're better at addressing certain things. Those movements have a pull on certain aspects of the human animal that leftist movements don't.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm just comparing and contrasting certain aspects of political ideologies and how some seem to be more satisfying on a primal level than others, even if they include ugliness, falsities and derangement.

For example, when I was a neo-fascist/neo-Nazi, the rallies of the far-right movements of the '30s and '40s had me in thrall. There was a religious attraction and power there that is missing from far-leftist movements and even progressive movements, as well with the classical liberalism that they are descended from (which seems to be dying out in the US, at least, as the zeitgeist becomes increasingly polarized).

Yeah, okay. I was surprised by the 'center' is all. Not a biggie though, I think I understand the thrust of what you're saying. Might require a wordy post in response, so I'm gonna grab a cup of coffee, then fire off a half-arsed pile of tripe in response (it's a talent).
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Honestly, I do think the left and the center have failed to address certain key things that are more to the fore in far-right ideologies.

Far-right ideologies, especially ethnic nationalist, tribalist, radical traditionalist, national anarchist, folkish religion (especially folkish Paganism, since Christianity is fast in decline in the West and even among the far-right), etc. tend to take a mythic view of humanity and the world at large. This appeals to the part of humanity that loves myth, symbols, grand archetypes, etc. They have a vision of returning to a wonderful, simpler past based around community, tradition and cohesive culture. They stand in opposition to out of control capitalism which is ravaging our species, other species and the planet itself. They are against the alienation of the modern world, which has wrecked the family unit (over 100 years ago or so, most of us were living more rural lives with both our immediate and extended family), resulted in mental illness (depression and other psychological afflictions are at epidemic levels) and turned us into dog eat dog slaves that spend our lives working menial jobs we hate for a pittance and then we die lonely and unfulfilled on an existential level. They recognize these things as problems and propose solutions to them. They view the modern world as degraded and decadent. They view our general malaise and the coming catastrophes in spiritual terms, primarily. They also have a Heroic view of man. This provides emotional satisfaction. They embrace the irrational and the Jungian. Their views on their enemies may be simplistic and even disgusting, but their ideologies are effective. There's a reason why they go on the upswing when the left has become decrepit and cannot capture the spirit of the age.

The left, on the other hand, tends to take a purely rationalist approach, viewing humans as resources or automatons of a sort. (I'm generalizing, of course, because you have genetic determinists on the right and am mainly thinking of Marxism with that.) There isn't room or much talk about the mythic aspect of humans and how important it is to our psychological well-being as a species. Most things are viewed in terms of class, and in empirical terms. Then you have the so-called "SJWs", who are mostly white middle to upper-class and college educated and most people simply cannot relate to that demographic, from poor inner city people to hicks in the sticks. (Even in my relatively progressive city, we have luxury condos right across the street from homeless shelters. These people are living in another world entirely and are seemingly oblivious to it.)

How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.


Some of us are trying to support ourselves and our families by trying to be a valuable cog in the system. Others are fighting for equalities like rights for the lbgt community and religious minorities. We don't have time to chase gods and, you know, get that mystical feeling.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Some of us are trying to support ourselves and our families by trying to be a valuable cog in the system. Others are fighting for equalities like rights for the lbgt community and religious minorities. We don't have time to chase gods and, you know, get that mystical feeling.
So your answer to my question is "no", then. Very well. Does that not say to you that something is wrong with the system itself?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Some of us are trying to support ourselves and our families by trying to be a valuable cog in the system. Others are fighting for equalities like rights for the lbgt community and religious minorities. We don't have time to chase gods and, you know, get that mystical feeling.
*

Since when can working families not also fight for human rights???

*
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm going to ignore the left, right and centrist tags for now, since I think they are largely beside the point. I don't mean that the type of tribalism you are talking about doesn't happen more on the right, but simply that it seems to be the presence of myth, of heroes, or a larger narrative that feeds what you are talking about, and I think that such things CAN exist on both 'sides of the fence', so to speak.

For me, your message is largely about cohesion.
The sort of tribal, or nationalistic messages you are talking about largely promote a degree of social consensus and cohesion. The relative simplicity, or at least prescriptiveness of the message is directly related to the degree of clarity and certainty it provides to it's adherents.

Let's ignore the right/wrong morals for a moment. A strongly nationalistic fascism would place you in a crowd of a thousand like-minded individuals who;
1) Have identified like-minded heroes, or archetypes (depending on the movements specific beliefs, this could be a local leader, a historical figure, or a mythical figure, with all three having a degree of being 'larger-than-life')
2) Have identified the enemy, or perhaps more commonly the underminers. The ones seeking to prevent an individual from becoming all they can.

There is an addictiveness, I think, in having a hero. Someone who is beyond reproach. And the more invested a follower is, the more difficult it is to disassociate from the message. And equally, there is an addictiveness in having a foe. How many times is the foe 'underhanded', or 'sneaky'? This is precisely to avoid the need for direct confrontation or evidence. Instead, they are shadowy creatures, generally seen as subhuman, and therefore clearly not 'like us'.

For anyone, including me, it would be difficult not to get caught up in a group of likeminded individuals, led my someone I respected, telling me I can be more, and it's not my fault. Or, most likely, it's not my fault as long as I'm doing everything in MY control (which would include group membership).

Now, I'm deliberately being abstract here, because I think this can apply to a wide-range of situations. Nazism is very much tied into the primal aspects of these theories, largely because of the impact of Hitler himself, whilst something like Marxism became less emotive.

Liberalism makes it much more difficult to achieve this sort of cohesion, since it's promoting individual thought and questioning. These things, by definition, break cohesion.
Interestingly, you might consider the most extreme left positions as once again approaching this sort of cohesion due to the levels of enforcement and punishment involved (whether direct punishment or simply via social censoring). Consider Ho Chi Minh, and Vietnam. It can certainly apply to religions. Take the Jehovah's Witnesses, for instance.

Anyway, I have a few arguments and questions I have basically swallowed, since I think the intent of the OP is to look purely at the primal and motivating nature of far right positions, rather than their correctness, so I'm trying to stay on topic. Still, happy to meander if you want.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.
They do it by taking the holy scripts as metophore rather than a sola scriptura or other literalist approach. Many do manage to appreciate the mystical aspects of religion from a rationalist perspective, can't make them all become zen Buddhists though.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Honestly, I do think the left and the center have failed to address certain key things that are more to the fore in far-right ideologies.

Far-right ideologies, especially ethnic nationalist, tribalist, radical traditionalist, national anarchist, folkish religion (especially folkish Paganism, since Christianity is fast in decline in the West and even among the far-right), etc. tend to take a mythic view of humanity and the world at large. This appeals to the part of humanity that loves myth, symbols, grand archetypes, etc. They have a vision of returning to a wonderful, simpler past based around community, tradition and cohesive culture. They stand in opposition to out of control capitalism which is ravaging our species, other species and the planet itself. They are against the alienation of the modern world, which has wrecked the family unit (over 100 years ago or so, most of us were living more rural lives with both our immediate and extended family), resulted in mental illness (depression and other psychological afflictions are at epidemic levels) and turned us into dog eat dog slaves that spend our lives working menial jobs we hate for a pittance and then we die lonely and unfulfilled on an existential level. They recognize these things as problems and propose solutions to them. They view the modern world as degraded and decadent. They view our general malaise and the coming catastrophes in spiritual terms, primarily. They also have a Heroic view of man. This provides emotional satisfaction. They embrace the irrational and the Jungian. Their views on their enemies may be simplistic and even disgusting, but their ideologies are effective. There's a reason why they go on the upswing when the left has become decrepit and cannot capture the spirit of the age.

The left, on the other hand, tends to take a purely rationalist approach, viewing humans as resources or automatons of a sort. (I'm generalizing, of course, because you have genetic determinists on the right and am mainly thinking of Marxism with that.) There isn't room or much talk about the mythic aspect of humans and how important it is to our psychological well-being as a species. Most things are viewed in terms of class, and in empirical terms. Then you have the so-called "SJWs", who are mostly white middle to upper-class and college educated and most people simply cannot relate to that demographic, from poor inner city people to hicks in the sticks. (Even in my relatively progressive city, we have luxury condos right across the street from homeless shelters. These people are living in another world entirely and are seemingly oblivious to it.)

How can the left capture the mystical side of existence and provide a narrative that both satisfies our atavistic, Jungian aspects while remaining true to the cause of justice? Is it even possible? I don't know. But I'm finding it rather boring and unfulfilling lately. Lately, I just want to go off into the woods and worship the Gods, leaving this depraved and decaying world behind.

Very thoughtful Frank. Leaving "gods" plural out of the mix. When I need to get away and just clear my mind of all the daily stresses and worries, I find that the forest is a great place to get away by myself and clear the cobwebs from my mind. Very refreshing.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Frank moves slightly to the Right and I move slightly to the Left, and we end up in the center. Center is peaceful.

 
The left, on the other hand, tends to take a purely rationalist approach, viewing humans as resources or automatons of a sort. (I'm generalizing, of course, because you have genetic determinists on the right and am mainly thinking of Marxism with that.) There isn't room or much talk about the mythic aspect of humans and how important it is to our psychological well-being as a species. Most things are viewed in terms of class, and in empirical terms. Then you have the so-called "SJWs", who are mostly white middle to upper-class and college educated and most people simply cannot relate to that demographic, from poor inner city people to hicks in the sticks.

You are right.

The modern centre left has no identity other than a vague Humanistic multiculturalism, 'social justice' and 'let people be themselves'. This is why they get sucked into identity politics and political correctness because they lack an ideological focus.

One thing Rationalists never seem to get is that humans are not rational: never have been, never will be. The unwritten assumption on the centre left was that Humanity was on an unstoppable path of progress towards rational Humanism free of myth and superstition. That their values were universal, and those who disagreed only did so out of fear, ignorance or because they were easily fooled. They find it hard to believe that any rational, educated person could ever honestly disagree with them.

They find it hard to accept that history is currently proving them to be wrong.

Unless they can find a new ideology that connects with people in the emotional level, then they are not going to fare well electorally. People now say we live in the 'post-fact era', but facts were never really that important in the first place. The Greeks knew that over 2000 years ago, people need to stop kidding themselves that we have become significantly more rational since then.
 
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