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questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Rates of religious belief were quite high before 1620, too.
But what's your point?
I am just observing. The constitution never said, that country is theistic, but there were prayers and Bible prior to 1962. Why? The actual life was theistic, despite the supreme papers. The papers have prepared the country to enter the post 1962 world.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One should have the definition of God. I follow my definition: Word God is the name of God. I am right until I would be proven wrong.
But if God is real then God has a real description, so that if you ever find a real suspect you can determine whether it's God or not. The point I'm making is that there's no such description.

It follows, does it not, that if God is not real then God can only be conceptual / imaginary?
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Iit would take a couple of pretty dramatic changes to make the video informative;

1) It would need to contain atheists...as opposed to deists and theists. I mean...Ghandi? WTF?
It would also need, first, to establish the authenticity of the quotes themselves. and if that checked out, to determine the mental competence of the speaker at the time, and third, as you say, to attempt to find out what percentage of modern atheists undergo deathbed conversions. I suspect it's miniscule and all but always emotional. Atheist philosopher Anthony Flew drew the odd headline when, finding self-awareness and the universe really really amazing, he embraced religion not far from the end. I don't suppose it made any difference, and if he felt better, who'd begrudge him? Still, one of his philosophical friends should have tapped him on the shoulder and murmured, Non sequitur, Tony.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
But if God is real then God has a real description, so that if you ever find a real suspect you can determine whether it's God or not. The point I'm making is that there's no such description.
The name of God is part of His description, CV. From description follows, that other gods are not gods, but idols - false gods.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I am just observing. The constitution never said, that country is theistic, but there were prayers and Bible prior to 1962. Why? The actual life was theistic, despite the supreme papers. The papers have prepared the country to enter the post 1962 world.

Just observing? No point?
The Pledge had God added to it in 1954.
God was added to paper money in 1957.

These additions must have been to prepare the country to enter the period between the 50s and 60s only, then?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
We realized as a nation that freedom for just one religion wasn't constitutional.
And that's what's missing in the OP per the 1st Amendment. We are not a theocracy even though some would just love to make us one that would be based exclusively on their religion. Many of these same people spout "religious freedom!", but only when it applies to their own.
 

questfortruth

Well-Known Member
And that's what's missing in the OP per the 1st Amendment. We are not a theocracy even though some would just love to make us one that would be based exclusively on their religion. Many of these same people spout "religious freedom!", but only when it applies to their own.
There was not a problem to have Bible and prayers in schools of the US prior to 1962. There was absolutely no problem with other religious groups. Why?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
There was not a problem to have Bible and prayers in schools of the US prior to 1962.
A large part of the problem is that the separation of church & state simply wasn't that often being enforced locally and in the states, especially since Christians had an overwhelming majority in both. But as time has gone on, Americans have become much more diversified when it comes to religion, plus the SCOTUS has ruled that people also have the right to freedom from religion, which should be clear by the wording of the 1st Amendment.

Also, there is literally nothing to stop a student from praying at most times of the day when in school, plus students can meet before or after school as long as the school and staff don't create nor run it.

There was absolutely no problem with other religious groups. Why?
There definitely was.

For one example, on an Indian reservation near where I was staying, the local public school had Christian meetings after school but prohibited Native Americans from what's called "drumming", which is religious as well. It was only after being threatened by a court action that they relented.

In a city near where I live, Jews and Hindu's were excluded by the city council from attending on the National Day of Prayer until they were threatened by a possible court action, and a lawyer from the synagogue I attended back then was the one who filed a class-action suit. The council finally relented under threat that the whole event might be canceled.

Also near where I live, an old school was put up for sale and was going to be bought by a Muslim group, and then the district, under pressure, "caved" and decided to keep the school open.

These are just three cases that I'm quite familiar with, plus I could cite even more.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
From my point of view the important question is, what's true in reality? so as to distinguish facts from stories; it seems remarkable to me that believers have no concept of a real god, one who has objective existence ─ as demonstrated by the absence of any objective test to determine whether my keyboard is God or not.
Could be an interesting discussion topic, possibly. Of course you are being very brief here, so I have to fill in the blank some to try to get precisely all you are saying.

It seems you are using the perfectly rational and normal (majority) belief that every last thing is only part of nature (which is a basic natural viewpoint that makes sense to most people). That reasonable view is actually a classic philosophical position called 'naturalism'.

Lemme define Naturalism is in the most sympathetic and common sense way (and most strong sounding way), to make it sound as correct as it possibly could seem --

Naturalism: that all things that exist and all events that happen are natural, operating according to the laws of nature (i.e. physics).

Now, of course, this can quickly become a sort of a tautology (merely saying A = A) -- of course everything we see or that happens has to be natural. Right? How could it be otherwise? (see my point??)

'Common sense' is merely the accumulated life experience of a person, where they learn how nature, and people, and society work on a practical level.

Our 'common sense' tells us all (all 100% of us here and all other people that are sane) that nature operates pretty consistently, and is quite real.

Also, of course, as we can see here, asking a question like:

"Where's the proof of the unnatural?

is a question that is...well...a tautological type of statement, really.

If an event was only natural then it'd be only natural. If it is supernatural then it cannot be replicated or observed at will, and doesn't follow natural laws (that can be discovered by investigation) etc. so therefore cannot seem to exist to investigation one would think (or at least to my awareness). But, of course, God is a being, that is, an agent with free will, and competent to chose whether or not to allow individuals to discover Him, according to His own choice and standards (just like you or me have standards of our own).
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
I am just observing. The constitution never said, that country is theistic, but there were prayers and Bible prior to 1962. Why? The actual life was theistic, despite the supreme papers. The papers have prepared the country to enter the post 1962 world.
If there are no prayers and no Bibles in the US now, then what exactly are the millions of American Christians doing every day?
Do they just stare at their ceilings, wishing they had some kind of holy scripture, or some way to talk to their god?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's not Christianity that's new, it's christian fundamentalism and christian politics.

Sixty years ago most people were nominally Christian, many went to church, &c, but many also wore ties, sport jackets and even fedoras. Christianity represented Conventionalism, not fundamentalism. There was nothing militant about it. It was just pro forma.
 
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questfortruth

Well-Known Member
Christianity represented Conventionalism, not fundamentalism. There was nothing militant about it.
Wrong idea here! Because being fundamental means to know where you came from ("I know where I am from" Jesus Christ). I came from God, not from the Biggest Bang on Earth. Fundamentalism was never the sin of fanatism.

 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because being fundamental means to know where you came from
Actually what we call "fundamentalism" within Christianity largely came in the late 1800's as a counter to what was called "modernism", and this was done within Protestant circles to "get back to the fundamentals" of the Bible.

I came from God, not from the Biggest Bang on Earth.
Earth came from the BB about 8,000,000,000+ years later by the evidence.

Fundamentalism was never the sin of fanatism.
Not true, but that doesn't mean that all, or even most, fundamentalists are "fanatics".
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Even having those supreme papers and constitution, the society has functioned as if the US was a Christian country (for example, public led prayers in school prior to 1962, and public led Bible study prior to 1963 in schools).



Brave little one! Please look at the video below. I think, that between the demolition of the public led prayer in schools, and today the freedom to demonstrate own religious beliefs in schools was unofficially demolished as badly:




"go and teach all the nations, by baptizing them" (Jesus Christ).



The theocracy is better than democracy. Look: the fall: Perfect Love -> Theocracy -> Kings -> Democracy -> Demonocracy (the power of demonic forces: deep state) -> total hatred (the second death).



"Democracy is the ruling of the gray mass over genius
..Justifies only one thing .. Mankind has never invented anything better in its entire history. "
(W. Churchill)
Why the war president Churchill has said so? I am observing, that
at each level of degradative fall, a person forgets the previous, higher level. For example, everyone in the Blissful Middle Ages was the theist. Now - more than half of the Russian Federation are atheists who do not know what it means to believe in God and why it is needed.

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works
Revelation 2:4-5

They unconstitutionally favored Christianity back then, but the minorities were too few to rebel or get any headway. They were shushed up. Thankfully the rest of us can speak up and make the country as it should have been, one for everyone, not just Christians.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
Some Christians are just like some Muslims who want to impose their religion on others, shove it down their throats and punish those who won't agree.

Fine, let's have prayer in public schools. Start with satanists, then Muslims, then pagans, then pastafarians and including atheists and then the Christians can have their turn to preach. But we also need to give time to Buddhists, Hindus and anyone else who wants to pray in public.

I think we all know many of them don't pray well with others.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Word God is the name, thus, the God is person.
Then show [him] to me. A photo will do but a video would be better.

I've been assuming from [his] billing that God is not a member of Homo sapiens sapiens. Is that right? If so, what species is [he] in the Linnaean tree?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That reasonable view is actually a classic philosophical position called 'naturalism'.
I'm hesitant to commit to categories, but I'd normally say I'm a materialist. Smart, with Armstrong agreeing, said materialism is the view that the only entities and processes that are real are those acknowledged by physics from time to time; and that seems about right.
Naturalism: that all things that exist and all events that happen are natural, operating according to the laws of nature (i.e. physics).
That accords pretty well.
Now, of course, this can quickly become a sort of a tautology (merely saying A = A) -- of course everything we see or that happens has to be natural. Right? How could it be otherwise? (see my point??)
The basis of my view is three assumptions. They're assumptions because in each case I can't demonstrate their correctness without first assuming they're already correct. They are:
That a world exists external to the self.
That the senses are capable of informing the self about that world.
That reason is a valid tool.​
Fortunately for me, anyone who posts here demonstrates agreement with the first two, and fingers crossed, the third as well.

[External] reality is therefore the world external to the self, also called nature, the realm of the physical sciences, the sum of all things and processes that have objective existence, and so on.

Applying this to the point you make, yes, 'real' means 'shown to exist in nature / the world external to the self / the realm of the physical sciences.

I say 'shown to exist' because I use the correspondence definition of 'truth' ─ truth is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent it corresponds with / accurately reflects [objective] reality. On this test the Higgs boson was not real until 2012; before that it was a hypothetical particle. Equally, in the latter 19th century the lumeniferous ether was real; and after Michelson-Morley it wasn't. The earth's crust was likewise solid and unitary until the development of modern tectonic theory starting around the 1950s. Dark matter and dark energy are not presently real. And so on.
'Common sense' is merely the accumulated life experience of a person, where they learn how nature, and people, and society work on a practical level.
I don't claim it as 'common sense'. I say (a) it's consistent with my assumptions and (b) I haven't yet met anyone who doesn't share at the least the first two of those assumptions.
Our 'common sense' tells us all (all 100% of us here and all other people that are sane) that nature operates pretty consistently, and is quite real.
No, the consensus of the best informed and sharpest is an essential part of science. Analogies to that are found throughout human affairs,
a question like:

"Where's the proof of the unnatural?

is a question that is...well...a tautological type of statement, really.
If X isn't known to exist in nature then the only place it can otherwise be known to exist is in an individual working brain that contains the concept of it, or imagines it. The concept of the Higgs boson is half a century older than the Higgs boson itself. (That's to say, the statement 'The Higgs boson is real' wasn't true till then. Truth is retrospective, not absolute.)
If an event was only natural then it'd be only natural.
No, there are a great many event which are internal to a brain. We've evolved to see the world in particular ways, one major part of which is seeing categories ─ the difference between 'this chair' (the particular) and 'a chair' (the category), for instance. A great deal of human thought uses such abstractions and generalizations ─ justice, love, indignation, history, car, burger, psychopathy, one, two, pi to the e+i, asteroid, doctor, medicine, life, on and on. The question is how they relate to reality ─ justice as the abstraction from distinct examples of fairness (for which we've evolved an instinctive feel), two from instantiations of twoness, remembering that each instantiation is actually brought about by a human judgment, the onlooker who says WHAT we'll count, and the FIELD in which we'll count it ─ how many beers left in the fridge?
If it is supernatural then it cannot be replicated or observed at will
The supernatural is by definition not natural, not real. Therefore the only thing it can be is conceptual / imaginary. If it's ever found in reality, at that point it will cease to be supernatural.
God is a being, that is, an agent with free will, and competent to chose whether or not to allow individuals to discover Him, according to His own choice and standards (just like you or me have standards of our own).
No, Got is a concept, an hypothesis, with no real counterpart ─ a very simple proposition that has remained unrefuted for thousands of years. That's why there have been thousands of different kinds of supernatural beings across those years, and why, since we find them in every culture, it's reasonable to suppose devising them is an evolved instinct of humans, probably as a support to tribal identity, that which makes the advantages of cooperation possible, along with having stories, customs, language and so on. (And perhaps also linked to explaining mysteries like what is thunder, why is drought, why does life appear to leave a person dying, and where does life then go?)
 
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